SUPRESSING FIRE!!

[apdrogers]

How does suppressing fire work. It's in the compendium, but it's only a couple sentences and I just can't figure it out.

[easyeight]

May 24, 2024 22:17:49 GMT apdrogers said:

How does suppressing fire work. It's in the compendium, but it's only a couple sentences and I just can't figure it out.

Hi, there's not really a special type of fire called "Suppressing Fire," it describes the effect of your shooting at targets in Cover (in a building in this example):

SUPPRESSING S TRUCTURES

When you fire at the occupants of a Structure you are trying to suppress it – cause the occupants to Duck Back, Hunker Down or Leave the Battlefield. The Defensive

Value of the Structure does not come into play except for counting as Cover.

When you shoot at targets in Cover you will most often miss the target (unless you get a "10" result on Shooting), but will engage them in a firefight, and after two rounds they will Duck Back if they have not been hit. They may also Duck Back if they are Out Gunned. Here's an example: 

I resolve a PEF as an Enemy Squad in a Building. Let's say I win the In Sight test, so I open fire and can see x6 Enemy in various windows, and I have x5 Rifles and x1 LMG firing. The Building happens to be DV3 (brickwork), but that doesn't matter since I'm shooting at Infantry, so the Building gives them Cover. Let's also say I fire with Bolt Action Rifles (Outgunned Rating 1) and an LMG (Outgunned Rating 4). The Enemy have BA Rifles (Outgunned Rating 1).

Now it's time for Roll, roll, shooty-shoot-shoot! Let's say all the figures are REP 4 to make it easy to determine, targets are all in Cover.

1. I roll the Rifles and score a modified 1d6+REP of 5, 9, 10, 8, 7 = 1 Hit, the rest Miss and since the Targets are in Cover (NUTS Shooting Table) they will be able to return fire. The figure that is hit is resolved as OOF.

2. The LMG rolls a 1d6+4 REP, and scores an 8, which is a Miss EXCEPT a figure is OUTGUNNED by the LMG and must DUCK BACK.  He has basically been *suppressed* by LMG fire.

3. The Enemy has x4 figures remaining and return fire, designating the first rifle on the LMG, scoring 1d6+4 REP results of 7, 9, 5, 8 for two hits. The result is one Duck Back and one OOF.

4. My remaining 3 Rifles and LMG may Return Fire. I roll the x3 Rifles 1d6+4 REP, and score 5, 8, 9 on the Shooting table. No hits, BUT, "• Targets that can fire will return fire. If have already returned fire, will Duck Back instead." Since these figures already Returned Fire they DUCK BACK instead.

5. The LMG opens fire and the modified roll is a 9, a Miss, but the last figure is both Outgunned and has already Returned Fire -- so it also Ducks Back.

So you have basically Suppressed the Enemy in the Building. If you have another Group or Squad that can Act, it can move up to the Building and assault it with hand grenades without triggering an In Sight because all the Enemy Figures are in DUCK BACK.

Does that make sense?

[apdrogers]

Thank you!

[apdrogers]

That was really well put. Thank you so much! I love this ruleset so much, I just have a hard time with how it's written sometimes. Thank goodness there is an awesome community and the man himself Ed that are always at the ready to help!!

[dylanjones]

Thanks easyeight.

Some questions, if you don't mind.

1) In your point 2 you say the LMG rolls 1d6+4, but surely it would roll more D6 than that - it is an LMG after all. If it was a German LMG, for instance, it'd roll up to six D6s, and could spread them across any untargeted figures.

2) After the enemy in the building are in DUCK BACK, you say a player could advance another squad up and assault with hand grenades. Could they in fact do that without triggering a new IN SIGHT? I thought DUCK BACK only applied against the cause of the test, not against any other figures.

[easyeight]

Hi,

1) In your point 2 you say the LMG rolls 1d6+4, but surely it would roll more D6 than that - it is an LMG after all. If it was a German LMG, for instance, it'd roll up to six D6s, and could spread them across any untargeted figures.

You are correct,  sorry for the confusion. I was using the NUTS Quickplay rules in my example and didn't explain that. 

• In NUTS 4e your Target Rating = the number of Shooting Dice you can fire, and then you allocate Target Rating dice to your targets and roll each die.
• In NUTS Quick Play your Target Rating = the total number of Figures you could hit with one burst, and then you roll 1d6+REP and the results indicate how many figures you have hit.

2) After the enemy in the building are in DUCK BACK, you say a player could advance another squad up and assault with hand grenades. Could they in fact do that without triggering a new IN SIGHT? I thought DUCK BACK only applied against the cause of the test, not against any other figures.

Yes, because the Enemy are in "DUCK BACK" which means they are no longer in direct Line of Sight from the direction of the fire fight. See if this diagram helps.




So picture, say Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan where you have multiple groups supporting each other. On their "Activation"  command might be yelled "Covering Fire!" which lets the Groups all know a Friendly Group will be maneuvering so don't shoot 'em, and it focuses fire on a target. "Covering Fire!" and Group 1 shoots at the Germans at the stone wall, and forces them to Duck Back. Group 2 moves to grenade range and makes a grenade attack by throwing hand grenades over the wall -- since they never enter Line of Sight of the Germans in Duck Back, no In Sight is triggered.

[korvessa]

Thank you = I appreciate that fine example

[dylanjones]

Awesome, thanks easyeight.

Presumably the same mechanic would apply if the German squad from your example was in a building.

What about if they were located at the edge of a wood looking out?

[fenris07]

The same concept works whether in a building or woods. This is where the LMG's shine, should only be using them to suppress, let the riflemen take the accurate shots. They have like a 4-6 target rating so suppress them by putting 1 shot onto each enemy model within their Arc of Fire. Even if they don't hit the enemy they'll be Outgunned and have to Duck Back. Therefore less enemy models can fire back at you and you can push up. When they Recover and poke their heads out you'll be there ready to shoot them, if you haven't already gotten into grenade range that is lol. Just remember the Enemy will try to do the same to you so keep your guys spread out a bit so an LMG can't pin down half a squad in one burst!

[dylanjones]

Jul 25, 2024 16:39:03 GMT fenris07 said:

The same concept works whether in a building or woods. This is where the LMG's shine, should only be using them to suppress, let the riflemen take the accurate shots. They have like a 4-6 target rating so suppress them by putting 1 shot onto each enemy model within their Arc of Fire. Even if they don't hit the enemy they'll be Outgunned and have to Duck Back. Therefore less enemy models can fire back at you and you can push up. When they Recover and poke their heads out you'll be there ready to shoot them, if you haven't already gotten into grenade range that is lol. Just remember the Enemy will try to do the same to you so keep your guys spread out a bit so an LMG can't pin down half a squad in one burst!

What I'm finding (basically using those tactics) is that the LMG gunners are the only guys who remain unsuppressed on each side. Because nothing outguns them.

I get the dynamic at play, but the results can feel a bit artificial.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Simple fix. Rules say.
If a figure shoots with a weapon with a higher OR than
what the target has or if the target cannot shoot back due to
being out of ammo or out of range, then the target is
outgunned, and must Duck Back.
If multiple figures fire at the LMG at the same time, as they can, and their OR total is higher than the LMG, the LMG ducks back.

[fenris07]

Jul 26, 2024 12:57:02 GMT Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy said:

Simple fix. Rules say.
If a figure shoots with a weapon with a higher OR than
what the target has or if the target cannot shoot back due to
being out of ammo or out of range, then the target is
outgunned, and must Duck Back.
If multiple figures fire at the LMG at the same time, as they can, and their OR total is higher than the LMG, the LMG ducks back.

Great idea!  That makes a lot of sense adding the OR together creating a volume of fire that the target would need to contend with.

[dylanjones]

Jul 26, 2024 12:57:02 GMT Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy said:

Simple fix. Rules say.
If a figure shoots with a weapon with a higher OR than
what the target has or if the target cannot shoot back due to
being out of ammo or out of range, then the target is
outgunned, and must Duck Back.
If multiple figures fire at the LMG at the same time, as they can, and their OR total is higher than the LMG, the LMG ducks back.

I'll definitely give that tweak a try.

But, rules also say you can't target a figure twice until all the figures in the group have already been targeted. So its not as simple as ganging up on the LMG gunner.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Correct. When there's a guy targeting you, it wouldn't make sense to fire at someone else. Of course, you could throw a grenade. 

[dylanjones]

Jul 27, 2024 15:32:06 GMT Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy said:

Correct. When there's a guy targeting you, it wouldn't make sense to fire at someone else. Of course, you could throw a grenade. 

It is a foolish LMG who lets the enemy get within 6 inches! 

In my current campaign (Eastern Front 1943, using Skirmish Campaigns "Grossdeutschland at Kursk" book) German MG-42s are dominating the battlefield.  If a Russian squad doesn't have an LMG for some reason they're suppressed easily and then can be finished off by grenades while they're ducked back.  If the Russian squad does have an LMG then usually that Russian LMG gunner is the only man standing/not ducked back after the German fire and as noted above in the thread it becomes a battle of the LMG gunners as they can't suppress each other.