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Post by Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy on Jul 28, 2024 14:01:37 GMT
That's one reason I went to using the CR 20213 game mechanics for every THW game. Give them a look. Cover is rolled over into actual protection as opposed to enhancing your odds of firing first. CR 2023
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Post by dylanjones on Jul 29, 2024 8:12:19 GMT
That's one reason I went to using the CR 20213 game mechanics for every THW game. Give them a look. Cover is rolled over into actual protection as opposed to enhancing your odds of firing first. CR 2023 Sure, although cover only works against First Fire doesn't it? And CR2023 doesn't have LMGs - the SMG is the only autofire weapon in it. And CR2023 restores the old endless firefight system where figures keep exchanging shots until one goes OOF or flees. I'm not a fan.
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Post by easyeight on Jul 29, 2024 17:01:17 GMT
Correct. When there's a guy targeting you, it wouldn't make sense to fire at someone else. Of course, you could throw a grenade. It is a foolish LMG who lets the enemy get within 6 inches! In my current campaign (Eastern Front 1943, using Skirmish Campaigns "Grossdeutschland at Kursk" book) German MG-42s are dominating the battlefield. If a Russian squad doesn't have an LMG for some reason they're suppressed easily and then can be finished off by grenades while they're ducked back. If the Russian squad does have an LMG then usually that Russian LMG gunner is the only man standing/not ducked back after the German fire and as noted above in the thread it becomes a battle of the LMG gunners as they can't suppress each other. Sounds realistic -- so you need to use cover as much as possible and maneuver tactics to approach, flank, fix, etc.
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Post by Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy on Jul 29, 2024 17:04:32 GMT
Sure, although cover only works against First Fire doesn't it? That's because as soon as the firing starts all will go to cover or go prone. And First Fire only applies to the first time any side fires. Here's how this works. You move into sight, and we roll on the Action Table. You see me, I'm in Cover, but you win and fire first because since the shooting hasn't started there's no guarantee I'm watching where you are at or even paying attention. You shoot, I pay attention, First Fire is over. Your guys will duck for cover or go prone, my guys are in cover and now are paying attention. No need to measure how far it is to move, etc. In NUTS you wouldn't be able to move and fire, which people can and will, but you can with CR 2023.
And CR2023 doesn't have LMGs - the SMG is the only autofire weapon in it.
As I mentioned just adjust the Target Ratings to 4, 5 or 6 like in the NUTS books. Use same ranges.
And CR2023 restores the old endless firefight system where figures keep exchanging shots until one goes OOF or flees. I'm not a fan. Able, Baker, Charlie has the duck back in it still. With the Stay or Go Table firefights don't last forever. Just to a conclusion. But as I said, use whatever works for you.
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Post by dylanjones on Jul 30, 2024 5:28:38 GMT
It is a foolish LMG who lets the enemy get within 6 inches! In my current campaign (Eastern Front 1943, using Skirmish Campaigns "Grossdeutschland at Kursk" book) German MG-42s are dominating the battlefield. If a Russian squad doesn't have an LMG for some reason they're suppressed easily and then can be finished off by grenades while they're ducked back. If the Russian squad does have an LMG then usually that Russian LMG gunner is the only man standing/not ducked back after the German fire and as noted above in the thread it becomes a battle of the LMG gunners as they can't suppress each other. Sounds realistic -- so you need to use cover as much as possible and maneuver tactics to approach, flank, fix, etc. Yes, no disputing that. My tables always feature plenty of cover. My point was that frequently we end up with a situation where the squad is ducked back except for the LMG gunners, who can't be outgunned and so don't duck back. Then it just becomes whichever LMG gunner is luckier than the other and takes him out. I'm not sure this is a realistic or fun representation of WW2 combat. But YMMV.
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Post by fenris07 on Jul 30, 2024 19:32:26 GMT
LMGs on a battlefield full of bolt action and semi auto rifles is a tough nut to crack (especially if they are in the hands of a Rep 5!). Get your best Rep guys to move and flank through cover and dead space while the rest of your squad holds the enemy in position. Then push them up and hopefully win the Insight. If your squad had been doing their job at least a few of the enemy would be in duck back or dead so when your flankers come up it'll just be the LMG (or a few others) they can all shoot at. Sometimes it works better to fall back and see if the enemy presses the attack then hit them with a counter attack. Other times try swinging a flank or rotating away from their center of fire. Whatever you do just make them move that center of fire, don't feed your troops to it. The worst thing you can do is just stay static and go toe to toe with something that outguns your whole squad, it probably won't work out well.
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Post by dylanjones on Jul 30, 2024 19:37:25 GMT
LMGs on a battlefield full of bolt action and semi auto rifles is a tough nut to crack (especially if they are in the hands of a Rep 5!). Get your best Rep guys to move and flank through cover and dead space while the rest of your squad holds the enemy in position. Then push them up and hopefully win the Insight. If your squad had been doing their job at least a few of the enemy would be in duck back or dead so when your flankers come up it'll just be the LMG (or a few others) they can all shoot at. Sometimes it works better to fall back and see if the enemy presses the attack then hit them with a counter attack. Other times try swinging a flank or rotating away from their center of fire. Whatever you do just make them move that center of fire, don't feed your troops to it. The worst thing you can do is just stay static and go toe to toe with something that outguns your whole squad, it probably won't work out well. Yes, all good points in general. I must not be making myself clear, unfortunately. I'm not talking about a situation where my entire squad is outgunned. I'm pointing out that where each squad facing off has an LMG the combat in NUTS frequently degenerates into everyone being suppressed/ducked back except the LMGs on each side who can't be outgunned/suppressed (unless a flamethrower or grenade is in range). Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions on this thread though! :-)
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Post by easyeight on Jul 30, 2024 20:00:25 GMT
I get it -- I just haven't run into that as a problem. If this happens in a game, usually the players adapt -- they may consider that avenue or area of the field "blocked" and work to finish their objective. I've never had the game just be static. Usually some of these things happen, depending on the game:
1. Players advance in Rushes to close with the LMG. Remember a figure can move 2 inches after triggering an In Sight before it's resolved. So stand up from prone, move 2", fall prone again (hopefully in cover. Do this until you can grenade the LMG or engage it.
2. One Squad or group keeps the LMG occupied by drawing fire and shooting it, hoping to suppress it, while the other squad flanks it.
3. If the Mission has Support -- call on your friend the Tank or other AFV to help with the LMG, or if you have mortars or arty available, call for help.
4. Fall back and work around the LMG, concede the ground if you can still accomplish your mission another way -- or maybe you fail. So if my short squad of Marines runs into a Nambo MMG in a bunker at the mission target site, maybe I lose if I can't figure out how to defeat it.
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Post by dylanjones on Aug 1, 2024 21:49:44 GMT
I'm astonished you've never had this situation in a game.
German squad A has ten men including a MG42 LMG (target is 6) (Rep is 4 but squad has a Rep 5 NCO with an SMG). Russian squad A has nine men including a Russian Derg LMG (target is 4) (rep is 3 but squad has a Rep 4 NCO with an SMG).
We roll IST as Germans advance into LOS of Russians in their trenches. Let's say Russians win it. Russians are obliged to fire if they are in range and otherwise in good health.
Russians fire, following the NUTS rule that all figures must first be targeted at least once before they can double-up on any German figure. Let's say Russians take out a couple of Germans OOF or obviously dead but not the MG42 gunner. However, regardless of whether they're hit, four of the Germans targeted by the Russian LMG are outgunned and so must duck back rather than return fire. The MG42 gunner (and possibly the SMG depending on who he got shot at by) is not outgunned and so returns fire along with any surviving riflemen who were only shot at by a Russian rifleman and were unharmed.
The Germans return fire if not ducked back/outgunned/OOF/dead. Again the rule is all Russians must be targeted at least once before the Germans can double-up on them. German MG42 will suppress six of the nine Russians regardless of whether it hits them or not - but it will not suppress the Russian LMG as it can't outgun it. German SMG will likely suppress some more Russian riflemen as it outguns them. It is a likely result of this fire that only the Russian LMG is left not outgunned/ducked back (ie German LMG will fire at six Russians including any SMG gunners and regardless of effectiveness they'll all be outgunned and duck back, German SMG fires at 3 riflemen and again they'll all be outgunned regardless of whether they're hurt).
So we end up in the situation where the two LMGs face off, as they're not going to be outgunned by anyone. The Soviet LMG will return fire, hoping to knock out the German LMG, and then the German LMG will get its active fire if still able.
It just becomes a battle between the two LMGs. Every time. Being in cover has no effect - you're still going to all be outgunned unless you're an LMG.
I get this may be considered the proper outcome. It isn't much fun though.
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Post by korvessa on Aug 1, 2024 23:22:44 GMT
I'm astonished you've never had this situation in a game. German squad A has ten men including a MG42 LMG (target is 6) (Rep is 4 but squad has a Rep 5 NCO with an SMG). Russian squad A has nine men including a Russian Derg LMG (target is 4) (rep is 3 but squad has a Rep 4 NCO with an SMG). We roll IST as Germans advance into LOS of Russians in their trenches. Let's say Russians win it. Russians are obliged to fire if they are in range and otherwise in good health. Russians fire, following the NUTS rule that all figures must first be targeted at least once before they can double-up on any German figure. Let's say Russians take out a couple of Germans OOF or obviously dead but not the MG42 gunner. However, regardless of whether they're hit, four of the Germans targeted by the Russian LMG are outgunned and so must duck back rather than return fire. The MG42 gunner (and possibly the SMG depending on who he got shot at by) is not outgunned and so returns fire along with any surviving riflemen who were only shot at by a Russian rifleman and were unharmed. The Germans return fire if not ducked back/outgunned/OOF/dead. Again the rule is all Russians must be targeted at least once before the Germans can double-up on them. German MG42 will suppress six of the nine Russians regardless of whether it hits them or not - but it will not suppress the Russian LMG as it can't outgun it. German SMG will likely suppress some more Russian riflemen as it outguns them. It is a likely result of this fire that only the Russian LMG is left not outgunned/ducked back (ie German LMG will fire at six Russians including any SMG gunners and regardless of effectiveness they'll all be outgunned and duck back, German SMG fires at 3 riflemen and again they'll all be outgunned regardless of whether they're hurt). So we end up in the situation where the two LMGs face off, as they're not going to be outgunned by anyone. The Soviet LMG will return fire, hoping to knock out the German LMG, and then the German LMG will get its active fire if still able. It just becomes a battle between the two LMGs. Every time. Being in cover has no effect - you're still going to all be outgunned unless you're an LMG. I get this may be considered the proper outcome. It isn't much fun though. Based upon replies to my earlier questions, I don't think you have this correct. I don't think the survivors of the first round get to pick new targets. Once they have eliminated the figure they are paired up with, they are done. Here is how I currently understand it (always subject to learning something new): Soviets on the left, Germans on the right. Since the Soviets won the IST, let’s suppose they choose to line up like this and have the following results. Sov LMG – German Rifleman #1 – German obviously dead Sov SMG – German Rifleman #2 – German ducks back Sov Rifleman#1 – German SMG – Soviet ducks back Rifleman Rifleman #2 – German LMG – Soviet obviously dead So at the completion of the initial round, you have the following survivors: Sov LMG Sov SMG German SMG German LMG The IST reaction is now over. You don’t line up again with new targets.
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Post by dylanjones on Aug 2, 2024 5:06:27 GMT
I see what you're saying Korvessa and agree in principle. I guess I'm less than comfortable about a rule that encourages the Russians *not* to target the MG42 because then it won't be able to return fire. It feels distinctly gamey to have Allied squads carefully avoiding firing at the German LMG until they've picked everyone else in the squad off.
I'm still not sure what the Return Fire rule is if I've been fired at by more than one enemy figure in the same round of fire. And I'm even less sure what the Return Fire rule is if I have a weapon capable of targeting more than one figure and I'm fired on by more than one enemy in a round of fire.
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Post by Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy on Aug 2, 2024 15:28:30 GMT
I see what you're saying Korvessa and agree in principle. I guess I'm less than comfortable about a rule that encourages the Russians *not* to target the MG42 because then it won't be able to return fire. It feels distinctly gamey to have Allied squads carefully avoiding firing at the German LMG until they've picked everyone else in the squad off. I'm still not sure what the Return Fire rule is if I've been fired at by more than one enemy figure in the same round of fire. And I'm even less sure what the Return Fire rule is if I have a weapon capable of targeting more than one figure and I'm fired on by more than one enemy in a round of fire. When you come into sight, and you will see the closest guy to you. You wouldn't take time to evaluate the situation and direct fire at the MG guy. You fire at the closest target that is facing you as he is a direct threat. You return fire at the guys that fired at you up to your Target Rating. 3 guys fire at you and you have a 1 shot weapon, fire at one guy. You fire at the MG42, he returns fire at you, only. He doesn't pick his targets. You pick your targets when not returning fire or if fired on my multiple guys and can't fire at all of them. Having said that, you choose how to play on your interpretation. It is your game.
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Post by dylanjones on Aug 2, 2024 18:54:29 GMT
I see what you're saying Korvessa and agree in principle. I guess I'm less than comfortable about a rule that encourages the Russians *not* to target the MG42 because then it won't be able to return fire. It feels distinctly gamey to have Allied squads carefully avoiding firing at the German LMG until they've picked everyone else in the squad off. I'm still not sure what the Return Fire rule is if I've been fired at by more than one enemy figure in the same round of fire. And I'm even less sure what the Return Fire rule is if I have a weapon capable of targeting more than one figure and I'm fired on by more than one enemy in a round of fire. When you come into sight, and you will see the closest guy to you. You wouldn't take time to evaluate the situation and direct fire at the MG guy. You fire at the closest target that is facing you as he is a direct threat. You return fire at the guys that fired at you up to your Target Rating. 3 guys fire at you and you have a 1 shot weapon, fire at one guy. You fire at the MG42, he returns fire at you, only. He doesn't pick his targets. You pick your targets when not returning fire or if fired on my multiple guys and can't fire at all of them. Having said that, you choose how to play on your interpretation. It is your game. Thanks. The Russians are not returning fire in my example, so going by your rules above, they can pick their targets. And hence can, if they want, carefully avoid firing at the MG42 so that it doesn't get to return fire at all in the initial round of fire.
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Post by Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy on Aug 2, 2024 19:07:19 GMT
Correct.
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Post by jgregory on Aug 3, 2024 2:35:59 GMT
I'm enjoying this robust discussion. Some thoughts (not necessarily solutions, just thoughts)...
"MG lock" was a bigger problem in 2E, when the insight test was only taken by the stationary team, so you couldn't push forward a character with high-Rep Quick Reflexes to win the IST.
If an MG has the ability to suppress entire squads, would you let him? Why not split the squad into two or three smaller teams - he can't Outgun three groups at once.
If you spread your figures out, so that there is 3"+ between figures in the unit, then an MG's arc of fire will only allow him to target two figure (not bunching up is Rule Zero when there are MGs or HE around...)
Remember the Tight Ammo rule - it's easy to roll two 1's with a Target 6 weapon, and it's not Outgunning anyone while it's spending a turn reloading.
A figure with Nerves of Steel is never Outgunned.
Just because you're in Duck Back doesn't mean you can't act. You could - toss a frag grenade to Outgun the MG if you're close enough: if not, let a rifleman shoot a rifle grenade as indirect fire - call in an arty/mortar barrage/airstrike on the MG's position - throw a WP Smoke grenade to give you smoke cover - get the artillery/mortar to lay smoke for you all without sticking your head up. The smoke options could give you the opportunity to clear out and maneuver, and if you can get around to his back side, there's no IST to worry about.
And most importantly, you should never have a bad time playing a solo game - if it seems the rules are leading to situations that aren't fun, then change something so that they don't. Maybe try allowing a Challenge test for the Sarge to scream "take out that Spandau!" to his squad, so that they all target the MG? I love Ed's suggestion of allowing the cumulative Target rating of 7 rifles Outgun the MG - it makes sense to me. Above all make it fun.
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