Differences between 2nd Tour, Cit. Soldier, and Star Marine?

[ryanmobile]

I've been comparing the rules for Star Army 2nd Tour and Star Army Citizen Soldier, as well as cruising various forum threads and Facebook postings. I bought 2nd Tour on DrivethruRPG a long while back and then (a long time ago but not as long) noticed my DrivethruRPG library had been updated to include Citizen Soldier.

Is Citizen Soldier a replacement for 2nd Tour? They have the same product numbers inside the cover (2HW-1023), but maybe that's a DrivethruRPG code? Quite a few rule sections are different, plus there are vehicle and mech rules included. If so, is there anything in 2nd Tour that should be carried forward into Citizen Soldier? Dropships? It looks like Cheating Death and Larger Than Life are no longer part of the star advantages.

I also have 5150 Star Marine. Where do the rules fit between 2nd Tour and Citizen Soldier? The rules are dated 2017 seem to contain a mix of elements found in both 2nd Tour and Citizen Soldier or found only in one of the rulesets. Star Marine seems to have a bunch of RPG elements that are not present in either Star Army ruleset.

Everything looks fun so I want to dive into it all, but I am trying to focus my time and effort spent learning the rules. I don't want to get waylaid by using rules that may contradict and confuse as I familiarize myself with the game.

Thanks!

[arkangilos]

I wish they had kept the drop ship rules and a lot of the reinforcement stuff from previous rules.
I can't speak for them, but it's a pretty modular system so you could theoretically carry over anything you want.

Ed's reply to my question when I asked the difference between CA and SM was basically that SM was generally more character and roleplay oriented. It also covers things like zero g, different planet types etc.

From my own experience:

It also is more battle board oriented in the ships, but includes rules for the standard table top.

Your characters have more traits, there is no BTA, etc. It's more close quarters ship boarding action.

If you have Star Navy you can use it during boarding actions.

The rules don't really contradict. You can actually pretty well apply Star Marine to Star Army. Star Army stuff would cover the ground invasions and assaults (but you can port your character and traits over). When you do Ship and Station boarding you use the rules as additions for zero g, room clearing, etc.

You can also do it like this:
You land on the planet and use the standard rules with tanks, reinforcements, etc. to establish a beach head. 
You close in on the enemy command complex. 
When you breach the walls, you seamlessly transition to the SM battle board system to fight room by room until you reach the command center of the complex. The battle board system makes sense in close confines because there really isn't room to maneuver, and in my own experience doing room clearing it matches up. 
As you go from room to room you use the anti-boarding tables to determine what kinds of defenses activate.


So yeah, the rules match pretty well with some minor tweaks.

[ryanmobile]

That makes sense, thanks for your thoughts, arkangilos.

Reading Ed's comments elsewhere on the internet and comparing something like unit organization, it seems like some of the changes in Citizen Soldier were meant to speed up gameplay by reducing the number of die rolls. For example, on page 10 under Using the Faction Lists, I understand that a single 1/2d6 roll determines entire squad...the roll is made to identify the squad leader, and then the 2nd in command is the following line, and rest of the squad complement is pulled from the four lower lines. Looking at Star Marine, there's at least three 1d6 rolls to determine the vitals of each squad member. Attributes in Citizen Soldier also seem to be boiled down to one table, where three tables are used to determine attributes in Star Marine and 2nd Tour.

I understand this system is intended to be played the way an individual desires (house rules supported/encouraged), but I like to understand how a game was intended to be played before I start making changes or interpreting things.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Nov 16, 2021 18:17:39 GMT ryanmobile said:

I've been comparing the rules for Star Army 2nd Tour and Star Army Citizen Soldier, as well as cruising various forum threads and Facebook postings. I bought 2nd Tour on DrivethruRPG a long while back and then (a long time ago but not as long) noticed my DrivethruRPG library had been updated to include Citizen Soldier.

Is Citizen Soldier a replacement for 2nd Tour? They have the same product numbers inside the cover (2HW-1023), but maybe that's a DrivethruRPG code? Quite a few rule sections are different, plus there are vehicle and mech rules included. If so, is there anything in 2nd Tour that should be carried forward into Citizen Soldier? Dropships? It looks like Cheating Death and Larger Than Life are no longer part of the star advantages.

I also have 5150 Star Marine. Where do the rules fit between 2nd Tour and Citizen Soldier? The rules are dated 2017 seem to contain a mix of elements found in both 2nd Tour and Citizen Soldier or found only in one of the rulesets. Star Marine seems to have a bunch of RPG elements that are not present in either Star Army ruleset.

Everything looks fun so I want to dive into it all, but I am trying to focus my time and effort spent learning the rules. I don't want to get waylaid by using rules that may contradict and confuse as I familiarize myself with the game.

Thanks!

Here goes.
I've been comparing the rules for Star Army 2nd Tour and Star Army Citizen Soldier, as well as cruising various forum threads and Facebook postings. I bought 2nd Tour on DrivethruRPG a long while back and then (a long time ago but not as long) noticed my DrivethruRPG library had been updated to include Citizen Soldier.



Is Citizen Soldier a replacement for 2nd Tour? It's an upgrade as the mechanics have changed, just less d6 rolling to get same result. You can use any of the rules from any of the books with little if any tweaking. 

They have the same product numbers inside the cover (2HW-1023), but maybe that's a DrivethruRPG code? Quite a few rule sections are different, plus there are vehicle and mech rules included. If so, is there anything in 2nd Tour that should be carried forward into Citizen Soldier? Dropships? It looks like Cheating Death and Larger Than Life are no longer part of the star advantages. You can bring anything forward.


I also have 5150 Star Marine. Where do the rules fit between 2nd Tour and Citizen Soldier? The rules are dated 2017 seem to contain a mix of elements found in both 2nd Tour and Citizen Soldier or found only in one of the rulesets. Star Marine seems to have a bunch of RPG elements that are not present in either Star Army ruleset. Correct. Similar but a bit different. The reason behind rule changes is that gamers are changing. No big tables to play on, want it faster to play but same results.


Everything looks fun so I want to dive into it all, but I am trying to focus my time and effort spent learning the rules. I don't want to get waylaid by using rules that may contradict and confuse as I familiarize myself with the game. Questions, if they come up can be answered here so that helps. Hope this helps.


Thanks!

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Nov 16, 2021 22:16:25 GMT arkangilos said:

I wish they had kept the drop ship rules and a lot of the reinforcement stuff from previous rules.
I can't speak for them, but it's a pretty modular system so you could theoretically carry over anything you want. Yep, you're right. But the rules form the other versions  can be brought in. 

Ed's reply to my question when I asked the difference between CA and SM was basically that SM was generally more character and roleplay oriented. It also covers things like zero g, different planet types etc.

From my own experience:

It also is more battle board oriented in the ships, but includes rules for the standard table top.

Your characters have more traits, there is no BTA, etc. It's more close quarters ship boarding action.

If you have Star Navy you can use it during boarding actions.

The rules don't really contradict. You can actually pretty well apply Star Marine to Star Army. Star Army stuff would cover the ground invasions and assaults (but you can port your character and traits over). When you do Ship and Station boarding you use the rules as additions for zero g, room clearing, etc.

You can also do it like this:
You land on the planet and use the standard rules with tanks, reinforcements, etc. to establish a beach head. 
You close in on the enemy command complex. 
When you breach the walls, you seamlessly transition to the SM battle board system to fight room by room until you reach the command center of the complex. The battle board system makes sense in close confines because there really isn't room to maneuver, and in my own experience doing room clearing it matches up. 
As you go from room to room you use the anti-boarding tables to determine what kinds of defenses activate.


So yeah, the rules match pretty well with some minor tweaks. Good observations and examples. Thanks!

[ryanmobile]

Thanks much, the above responses have the information I was looking for.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Nov 16, 2021 22:49:07 GMT ryanmobile said:

That makes sense, thanks for your thoughts, arkangilos.

Reading Ed's comments elsewhere on the internet and comparing something like unit organization, it seems like some of the changes in Citizen Soldier were meant to speed up gameplay by reducing the number of die rolls. For example, on page 10 under Using the Faction Lists, I understand that a single 1/2d6 roll determines entire squad...the roll is made to identify the squad leader, and then the 2nd in command is the following line, and rest of the squad complement is pulled from the four lower lines. Looking at Star Marine, there's at least three 1d6 rolls to determine the vitals of each squad member. Attributes in Citizen Soldier also seem to be boiled down to one table, where three tables are used to determine attributes in Star Marine and 2nd Tour. Good example of changes.

I understand this system is intended to be played the way an individual desires (house rules supported/encouraged), but I like to understand how a game was intended to be played before I start making changes or interpreting things. They reach the same conclusion, how you get there and how much detail can be tweaked. I suggest do the Stop Boxes and play the rules as written a few times, then decide what, if anything you want to tweak,. Hope this helps.