Help with advancing into combat

[korvessa]

I have been plugging along learning this game through my first campaign (Blood upon the Risers - ButR). I have asked a tom of questions (many thanks to all who have answered) and experimented with the 2020 version (which I have a hard copy) and the quick play rules. This time I want to have a go with the 2014 version Ed recently posted on Facebook.

I am on the last scenario of ButR and I foresee something I am not quite sure how to handle: See map.

The white rectangles represent the positions of US paratroopers (some groups bigger than others). The white triangle is a 57mm ATG on a hill. Because of flooding, the NPE are forced to advance down a narrow causeway. How does the NPE force advance into fire?




Here is where it gets tricky for me. I am going to quote the rule and insert the sides in parenthesis to help me understand. Here is the IST triggering rule.

Whenever a group (US Paras) has an opposing group (NPE Germans) enter into its (US Paras) Line of Sight or LOS, and the opposing group (NPE Germans) was not seen previously during this activation phase, the In Sight Test has been triggered



So NPE group #1 advances up the causeway until it triggers an “In Sight Test” (IST). As I understand it, after all the action and reaction shooting, its move is done. Now it is time for NPE group #2 to move up. As soon as it comes into LOS of the US Paras, an IST is triggered because it is a new group that hasn’t been previously sighted. Now both groups are basically stuck there, because as soon as one figure moves forward, it triggers an new IST. How do the NPE groups keep advancing?


I suppose they could "charge" in, but what if they aren't close enough? 
(The rules say you can declare a charge "any time" - does that include after a group has an ITS resolved?)


I presume I am missing something.

[squidlord]

Jul 7, 2024 0:16:05 GMT korvessa said:

As soon as it comes into LOS of the US Paras, an IST is triggered because it is a new group that hasn’t been previously sighted. Now both groups are basically stuck there, because as soon as one figure moves forward, it triggers an new IST. How do the NPE groups keep advancing?

I found your problem. This is wrong. The only way that an engagement round can really end is with the elements of a unit either dead, in duck back, or thrown prone on the ground if there was no cover for them to duck back to.

Dead elements you never have to worry about.



Elements in duck back will, in fact, trigger a new IST if they move into line-of-sight again, which includes standing up.



Elements which throw themselves prone never broke line of sight. Likewise with elements that returned fire and survived.

Now look at the terrain you have them trying to come across. It looks like the US paratroopers have solid line of sight out to the actual end of that road coming in from the north. This is dependent on what the width across those trees are, but they don't look like more than light cover and maybe obscuration, not far enough apart to actually block line of sight even through the entire bunch.



So the Germans are going to enter the field, immediately trigger an IST, move two inches, which they are allowed before the IST actually manifests, take a whole bunch of fire, and probably lose some men while a good chunk of the others duck back off of the road, probably into the trees themselves for cover.



And then they are kind of stuck. There's nowhere for them to maneuver to. There's no cover for them to come through or use to maneuver. The only saving grace for them is that any men who did not duck back or die can then complete their movement phase and move up toward the bridge itself. Those men can complete their activation action and put fire on the American positions and hopefully put them in a duck back state so that their compatriots can move forward. You only trigger an IST when you enter line of sight. So if you never duck back (which breaks line of sight), you can keep advancing.



But good luck with that because you've been stupid enough to come through a very narrow area with no actual cover and a vast open area with a significantly more powerful force waiting in prepared defensive positions. If you ever find yourself in this position, the first response is "don't". The second response is, "You don't set foot on the board until you've called in heavy artillery strikes on where the American forces may exist." The third response is, "You better have more than three times the number of attackers than defenders because your only hope is to outlast their ammo, their morale, and their flesh."



But the most important thing to note is that this makes a lousy scenario setup and you should never actually be in it unless the whole point is to demonstrate a complete and utter meat grinder where German bodies pile up high enough to block the bridge, and they have effectively infinite reinforcements

[korvessa]

I don’t know how familiar you are with this particular action, but it is a scaled down version of the fight for the bridge over the Merderet River. The Germans came over with some tanks (a Pz III and some old French relics from 1940. They were all knocked out in short order by a couple of bazooka teams (earning the DSC in the process).

The Americans stopped them of course. They then returned the favor and in an epic charge, they charged across the causeway. In addition to capturing the bridge, the paratroopers had to link up with several small groups that were cut off on the far side of the flood plane (one of which held my dad).

Just above where the map ends, there is a slight bend, then 600 straight yards before the end of the causeway. But like you said, a real killing ground.

But back to the game…

Based on previous questions and answers, it is my understanding that an IST resolution will likely end with figs on both sides in good order (Assuming they pass the man down panic test). If a fig takes out its first target, it doesn’t fire on a new target.

So as an easy example, assume 4 Germans take on 4 Americans. They line up one on one. Assume each side wins two and pass the “Carry On” test. The IST is resolved with 2 figs left on each side in their positions and the active player moves on to the next group.

The next group moves up, and because it wasn’t previously sighted, a new IST is triggered. Or so that is my current understanding.

It is likely, though not guaranteed, that the Americans will dispose of the surviving Germans with “Active Fire” on their next turn. And the process starts again with next group. Likely with similar results.

[squidlord]

Jul 7, 2024 3:02:17 GMT korvessa said:

Based on previous questions and answers, it is my understanding that an IST resolution will likely end with figs on both sides in good order (Assuming they pass the man down panic test). If a fig takes out its first target, it doesn’t fire on a new target.

So as an easy example, assume 4 Germans take on 4 Americans. They line up one on one. Assume each side wins two and pass the “Carry On” test. The IST is resolved with 2 figs left on each side in their positions and the active player moves on to the next group.

The next group moves up, and because it wasn’t previously sighted, a new IST is triggered. Or so that is my current understanding.

It is likely, though not guaranteed, that the Americans will dispose of the surviving Germans with “Active Fire” on their next turn. And the process starts again with next group. Likely with similar results.

It depends on how many are coming in at the time but since only one group can activate at a time and they get dealt with before the next one gets dealt with – yes. A particular given IST resolution will probably end with elements on both sides still being up. Keep in mind that as long as more groups come into view, the side which is not active will keep getting the opportunity to make IST, meaning that the American forces are going to keep popping off every time the Germans come onto the board from the north. Duck back will slowly reduce the number of American guns going off as return fire takes effect but… It's not the place you want to be as a German.



This underlines one of the most notable differences between wargaming a situation and looking at history: nobody writes about the battles that go exactly as everyone expected, which is most of them.



The problem with the example as you describe it is that you've oversimplified the situation. Yes, that first four-man German group steps onto the board, moves 2 inches, and the American group on the left executes their IST. They engage one on one, fire is exchanged, and the four Americans kill one German and put two into duck back, breaking line of sight, and leaving one standing. Now the next American group, probably the infantry in the middle, get to take their IST on that German group, of which they can see one guy so their guns unload on that one guy. Let's assume by the magic of RN Jesus that he doesn't get put into duck back and he doesn't go out of the fight. The third American group on the right flank has line of sight and has since he came onto the board, so they take their IST with all of their guns on that last guy. Let's assume for the sake of the discussion that RN Jesus takes pity on the poor Hun and he survives that harrowing experience without ducking for cover. Now the emplaced gun will get to execute its IST.



When the second German group comes onto the board from the north, we get to do all of this all over again, minus the two guys in the first American infantry group who are out of the fight or in duck back.



Your best hope as the Germans is to lead with armor because the infantry will be outgunned and almost all of them will duck back or simply not be able to engage, though the tank really wants them to duck back. It gets one activation shot and probably tries to take out the emplacement if it has survived the emplaced IST without being rattled itself. If you do bring the armor on first and manage to get some suppression on the infantry, you may have a chance to bring your own German infantry onto the board and take up cover in those small clusters of woods but I wouldn't expect to make any kind of progress forward anytime soon.



On the next turn, it all hinges on who wins the activation roll, though it's going to suck for the German either way. If you only bring one group onto the board at a time, they probably won't be able to put together enough mass of fire without the dice being particularly generous at any point to push through the chokepoint.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Yes, not a good situation for the Germans to be in. Nice to have gamers that can help with the rules. Much appreciated.

[korvessa]

It looks like the key is that any survivors of the original group after the ITS is resolved may finish their normal move.
That helps.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Jul 7, 2024 18:48:28 GMT korvessa said:

It looks like the key is that any survivors of the original group after the ITS is resolved may finish their normal move.
That helps.

Unless forced to duck back.

[korvessa]

Thanks - both of you.
Perhaps part of my issue is an overly-romantic vision of what a WWII charge looked like!

[dylanjones]

Jul 7, 2024 3:36:17 GMT squidlord said:

The problem with the example as you describe it is that you've oversimplified the situation. Yes, that first four-man German group steps onto the board, moves 2 inches, and the American group on the left executes their IST. They engage one on one, fire is exchanged, and the four Americans kill one German and put two into duck back, breaking line of sight, and leaving one standing. Now the next American group, probably the infantry in the middle, get to take their IST on that German group, of which they can see one guy so their guns unload on that one guy. Let's assume by the magic of RN Jesus that he doesn't get put into duck back and he doesn't go out of the fight. The third American group on the right flank has line of sight and has since he came onto the board, so they take their IST with all of their guns on that last guy. Let's assume for the sake of the discussion that RN Jesus takes pity on the poor Hun and he survives that harrowing experience without ducking for cover. Now the emplaced gun will get to execute its IST.

Hmm. This isn’t how I play Nuts. Maybe I’m doing it wrong, but in this situation I’d take the IST simultaneously for all the US units with LOS to the first German intruder. Some of them will possibly win the IST and some will lose (and don’t fire). 



When the second German group comes onto the board from the north, we get to do all of this all over again, minus the two guys in the first American infantry group who are out of the fight or in duck back.



Your best hope as the Germans is to lead with armor because the infantry will be outgunned and almost all of them will duck back or simply not be able to engage, though the tank really wants them to duck back. It gets one activation shot and probably tries to take out the emplacement if it has survived the emplaced IST without being rattled itself. If you do bring the armor on first and manage to get some suppression on the infantry, you may have a chance to bring your own German infantry onto the board and take up cover in those small clusters of woods but I wouldn't expect to make any kind of progress forward anytime soon.



On the next turn, it all hinges on who wins the activation roll, though it's going to suck for the German either way. If you only bring one group onto the board at a time, they probably won't be able to put together enough mass of fire without the dice being particularly generous at any point to push through the chokepoint.

[korvessa]

Dylan
I play it that way as well

[korvessa]

I don't have a Airborne anti-tank gun (yet), I was going to proxy it using the German one 
But that's just wrong - so it's on the way. Unfortunately there was a screw up at packaging (they left out the crew) - so it's a bit delayed.
I'll report how it goes.

One thing I am going to do is give the Germans more cover.
Photos from the day show much thicker foliage than there is now, although this photo is the very top of the map, perhaps slightly off map.

[squidlord]

Jul 8, 2024 0:54:30 GMT dylanjones said:

Jul 7, 2024 3:36:17 GMT squidlord said:

Hmm. This isn’t how I play Nuts. Maybe I’m doing it wrong, but in this situation I’d take the IST simultaneously for all the US units with LOS to the first German intruder. Some of them will possibly win the IST and some will lose (and don’t fire). 

If anything, that's more generous to the Germans than how I'm resolving it. They can only return fire to a target and things within the swath of their weapon if they are carrying an SMG or something with T2+.



So they're only really going to get to return fire at one group that targets them anyway with the potential to force duck back. And then the second German group is going to enter the map and trigger all of those ISTs from the American forces.



Each individual German group/unit is only going to get to shoot back at some fixed total number of American soldiers firing in. And it's going to shake out to be about the same numbers either way.