Shooting and mutiple rounds (melee as well)

[korvessa]

I understand that fire between two figures will be resolved as after a maximum of two rounds, one or the other will be dead, out of the fight or dropped back.

But what I can't find is how it works with groups.

In this example you have a German group of six figures and an American group of six figures.

The Germans have the initiative and move first this phase (as an NPE) triggering an In Sight test. Winning the test, the Germans select targets.

At the conclusion of the round of shooting, the Germans won three and the Americans won three.

Now what happens? Which is correct?



A) a second round of shooting occurs, with the surviving figures of the side who originally won In Sight test picking new targets from the surviving enemy. This will be repeated (so possibly a 3rd round, 4th, etc.) until only one side has figures left in the fight.



B) the shooting is over and the phase ends, with the 3 surviving figures from each side all in sight of one another. This leads to one of two things:

• If the Germans have groups that have not activated this turn, they could move up and start a new firefight. No In Sight will be taken (as the Americans have been previously spotted this phase) and the Germans will get the first shot for this round.

• If the Germans have no other moves, it becomes the American activation. As the two groups from the original fight are still within sight of one another, a new In Sight test is taken as this is a new phase and a fresh round of shooting occurs.



Same question for melee. Are there multiple rounds if both sides have surving figures?

[menidas]

Maybe (likely?) I’ve been going all wrong about this, but I’ve played my games so far in an all together different way, that avoids the problem you’re outlining.

I’ve resolved group firefights on a miniature by miniature level, individually. So to stick to your example:

Since the Germans have won the in-sight test, I’d assign targets quite like you said. In your 6on6 example that works out quite nicely (each German gets one target) but even if there were 8 Germans, the additional two would simply get to target two Americans who’ve already previously been targeted (unless they ducked back beforehand).

And then I’d start resolving each firefight individually, including the multiple back-and-forth rounds of “return fire”.

e.g. German A targeted American B and misses. According to the shooting table American B gets to return fire and misses as well. At this point I’d be checking the shooting table again, to see if German A would get to ”return fire” as well (since his first shot wasn’t as “return fire” as per the rules). If he would miss again, American B would not get to return fire again, regardless of the shooting table result but would in most cases duck back.

That takes American B out of the fight, since “duck back” will most likely also take him out of LoS.

Ultimately, if you repeat that exercise with each individual soldier, you tend to have one clear winning side, with the majority of soldiers ducking back and thereby being out of sight.

As to point B) I also read the rules differently. On page 18 it says “Whenever a group has an opposing group enter into its Line of Sight or LOS, and the opposing group was not seen previously during this activation phase, the in Sight Test has been triggered.”

So in your example, I’d argue that the new/second German group would trigger another in-sight test with the American. Or at least with those troops that haven’t ducked back out of sight.

Regardless, I’m interested to hear what others think!

[korvessa]

Let me clear it up a bit. Let's number the Germans 1-6 and the Americans A-F. So the pairings go like this
1-A, 2-B, 3-C, 4-D, 5-E and 6-F'
Let's further assume that Germans 1,2 & 3 win (with A,B & C ducking back) and Americans D,E & F win (with 4,5 & 6 ducking back)
So now we are left with Germans 1,2 & 3 and Americans D, E & F, all in good order.
Now what happens?

If I understand your point correctly, you are saying start another round: 1-D, 2-E & 3-F. And keep doing that until there is only one side left in good order.
That's what I had been doing, but I started questioning myself and couldn't find in any of my rulebooks a defintive answer.

As to the second question, I think I see your point and I had misread something. So thinking outloud to help me through it, what if we replace some words with specific sides.
Assume it is the American initiative, so they are the "moving group." Thus we have:
A German group has an American group enter into its LOS,, and the American group was not seen previously during this activation phase an In Sight test is triggered.
Ah.. I see what I did wrong.
Thanks.

[menidas]

May 3, 2024 20:22:32 GMT korvessa said:

If I understand your point correctly, you are saying start another round: 1-D, 2-E & 3-F. And keep doing that until there is only one side left in good order.
That's what I had been doing, but I started questioning myself and couldn't find in any of my rulebooks a defintive answer.

Glad I could help a little! 

As to your statement in the quote: Now you've got me confused as well Up until now, what I would've done is in fact not continue the firefight but instead I'd have the active side continue their turn as normal. In your example that would mean, that the three surviving Germans 1,2 & 3 could continue their movement and/or take the voluntary action to "active fire" (p. 17) to continue engaging D, E & F. 

However, having looked into it just now, the 4th edition rulebook also states on page 25 "Fire continues between to figures until one is unable to return fire", which would support your interpretation of the rules. Being "unable to return fire", however, could also mean being out of ammo. So in that particular situation the figure would be in good order, but couldn't fire or return fire. So what would one do in that particular situation?

Bottom line: I'm as uncertain as you now.

[korvessa]

May 3, 2024 21:52:24 GMT menidas said:

May 3, 2024 20:22:32 GMT korvessa said:

That's what I had been doing, but I started questioning myself and couldn't find in any of my rulebooks a defintive answer.

Bottom line: I'm as uncertain as you now.

 I do tend to have that effect on people.

Hopefully Ed will chime in with the answer

[sp]

My understanding is (with brief recap to make sure I follow):

It's German NPE turn.

In-Sight triggered.

Resulting firefight. Half of each side is OD, OOF, or DB, and not in the fight.

None of the remaining characters on either side are lined up for a fight any more.

Next you would...

Depending on version of game and rules complexity, carry out reactions, received fire, man down tests, etc. for each side.

Then... it's still the German turn. If they haven't Active Fired this turn, they can do that now. If they still have movement remaining, they can do that now. As NPEs, by the rules, they would probably shoot. If they have already completed their activation, they idle. If there are other German units that haven't activated yet, they might approach and trigger an in-sight between the new German unit and the surviving Americans, but this wouldn't involve the first German unit.

If all German units have completed their activations, and it becomes the American (player) turn...

If you're playing with a Star PC, and that character is leading the survivors of the original American unit...

You can choose to Active Fire against the surviving Germans, or move into a better position and then active fire, or not shoot at all, and just move away, or charge into melee, or whichever.

As long as you're dealing just with the only the survivors of the original German and American units, you wouldn't roll a new in-sight test, unless the units completely broke LOS and then moved back, since they're already aware of each other, aren't "reacting." They could still exchange Active Fire, on their activations.

Plainest reading of the rules says that if your Star is not with the unit, then the surviving Americans are controlled by the rules, like an NPE force... but I tend to fudge that a bit?

[korvessa]

Thank you. That clears it up for me.
I was unaware of your last point, so I looked it up and found it in the compendium.
Looked kind of fun. I think I'll tweak it a bit (I play Blood upon the Risers) - 2D6 v Rep of each NPF group (non-player friendly)
2 = Follow my orders
1 = stay put but may active fire
0 = Follow the non-player enemy rules

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Page 16 Turn Sequence.
Active side triggers the In Sight. They moved into sight.
In Sight winner target enemy soldiers.
Fire resolved individually.
One figure will win, and this is often both sides having winners.
Other side now activates and resume firing.
When both sides are done, time to take to roll for Activation.
Repeat.
If a figure has Ducked Back and recovers during the next round of shooting no In Sight is triggered.
Example - Jim bob Joe gets fired on and Duck Back out of sight. The firefight is still on going as there are still soldiers on both sides in sight.
Jim Bob Joe's side Activates, and he recovers, and can be seen. He is now in sight so can be fired at when the enemy activates.

I recommend using the Optional Quick and Easy rules on page 98. These are the best bet. Much smoother. I didn't want to make an updated rules set as some like the detail, some don't, so I added the optional rules.
Hope this helps.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

As for melee. Same thing. Melees continue until only one of the figures remains in carry on.

[korvessa]

Thanks for the help, Ed.
So far (and still very new as you can tell by all the questions) I think I like a mixture of the regular and quick rules.
If I understand everyone correctly, when an In Sight firefight occurs, you fight one round of matchups, then procede to the next group.
Which means I wasn't doing it right.
Again, many thanks for the clarifications, as I love the game.
So much so I am working on a 2nd and 3rd army.
I now have US Airborne and German Infantry. Building Finns and Russians for the Winter War.

[sp]

Some earlier rules didn't have the "If have already returned fire, will Duck Back instead." You could get stuck in a near-infinite loop of low-Rep characters trying and failing to kill each other, at least the way I read it, where "return fire on a miss" happened before "received fire reaction test."

...but I might have been new and still learning.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

That's how the updated Q&R rules are.