Group Movement & In Sight Tests & more

[emkay1978]

Hello, after reading the Rules multiple times I still struggle with Basic Game Concepts and the general Gameflow….
(Haven’t even read the Vehicle Rules yet…)

Movement, Groups, NP Enemies and In Sight Test
After reading the rules I have no idea how the rules should be handled on the table…
I think (after reading the rules several times and some forum threads) that there is no “Group Movement” where all members of the active Group move simultaneously before In Sight Tests are resolved. Instead you activate a group, and then each member of the group is moved individually (one after another) until all are finished or an In Sight Test is triggered. Is this correct?
Seems very strange that a Fireteam is unable to advance/engage in a coordinated move….
How is this handled for NP Enemy movement? If an enemy group is on the table (via a resolved PEF) how is movement handled to attack a player group that is currently out of LOS but could be attacked after a (coordinated) move? The very first NP Enemy entering LOS would already trigger an In Sight Test while the Rest of the Enemy Group is far behind and unable to help.
I just don’t get how it possible that 2 Squads engage each other with multiple Members being able to fire if the first member moving into LOS triggers the Fire Fight…

I know that after triggering the Insight Test all members of the active group may move an additional 2". But is this really the only way to engage with multiple Members of a group? And how is this applied to the NP Enemies when they are the active Group.... This would force me to play both sides like a real player instead of letting the game AI handle the NP Enemies....

There are contradicting Answeres in the forum:

twohourwargames.proboards.com/thread/724/group-firing   (Group Movement Possible)

twohourwargames.proboards.com/thread/941/newbie-pef-resolution (each figure is moved individually)

PEF’s in Defensive Position
What is a defensive position in Game Terms ? If a PEF already is behind a Stonewall / Fence / Bocage etc or in a wood when it is resolved does this count as defensive position or do I have to place some kind of Trenches, Sandbags etc…
If there is a PEF which moved and is on an open Road or behind a bocage / Fence etc. Can it still be in a defensive Position or a building? Do I just place a Building or defensive Postion in the middle of the Road or behind the Bocage? Can it appear out of nowhere even if my squad had LOS to the Position before… Doesn’t this lead to very strange and unrealistic Situations? (Buildings appearing out of nowhere or in very strange Locations, Buildings or fortified Positions moving into LOS of my squad)

Group Size (and Grenades)

If multiple members of my Squad are positioned in a way that they COULD form a Group, can i still decide and activate them as multiple smaller Groups or alone? If the latter is possible does this mean every group can potentially throw a Grenade?

Active Fire

If a group triggered an In Sight Test with an enemy Group that resulted in a Shootout -> does this count as Active Fire if

a) my (active) Group won the In Sight Test and fired

b) my (active) Group lost the In Sight Test but returned Fire

Or can my (active) Group still use an action to active Fire the enemy Group (if some members of both groups are still in LOS) ?

Return Fire Example Page 27

Why do the Germans only use 2D6 each when firing with SMG's?

PEF Movement
Do PEF’s always use their full movement or can they move shorter to get or remain in cover ?

NP PATROL REACTION
„… withdraws from the table back the way they entered.!” How is this possible? PEF’s are directly placed onto the Board in a Section or in a Building. They don’t enter the board via a table edge…

WHERE REINFORCEMENTS ARRIVE

Where do Enemy Reinforcements (NP Enemies) arrive? The table seems to only cover Reinforcements for the Player. And again if the enemy did not move onto the Board but was spawned via PEF -> from which side to Reinforcements for NPE come onto the table...

Rally / Recover

Is it possible during a single Activation of a Group that they are rallied by the Leader and then Recover?

Sorry for the wall of text, but I'm really confused...

Best Regards

Markus

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Sept 27, 2021 10:59:05 GMT emkay1978 said:

Hello, after reading the Rules multiple times I still struggle with Basic Game Concepts and the general Gameflow….
(Haven’t even read the Vehicle Rules yet…) No worries, I'm here to help.

Movement, Groups, NP Enemies and In Sight Test
After reading the rules I have no idea how the rules should be handled on the table…
I think (after reading the rules several times and some forum threads) that there is no “Group Movement” where all members of the active Group move simultaneously before In Sight Tests are resolved. Instead you activate a group, and then each member of the group is moved individually (one after another) until all are finished or an In Sight Test is triggered. Is this correct? You do move the whole group at the same time.  The best way to do it is move all the figures the same distance at the same time. When one or more triggers and In Sight you still have 2" to move. It's like real life. The whole squad is moving at the same time.  Example - I have a squad of 8 soldiers in line. They all move up 6" to the edge of the woods. Then you could move them into sight, at the same time. Think real life where they all are moving together.

Seems very strange that a Fireteam is unable to advance/engage in a coordinated move…. Not sure where you are getting this from. Check Actions on page 16. Says group.   How is this handled for NP Enemy movement? If an enemy group is on the table (via a resolved PEF) how is movement handled to attack a player group that is currently out of LOS but could be attacked after a (coordinated) move? The very first NP Enemy entering LOS would already trigger an In Sight Test while the Rest of the Enemy Group is far behind and unable to help. No, the group moves together. as page 16 says. Don't focus on individual figures mounted separately.  It's still a group. Each member of the group together. Example - I want to move my group 8". I move the first guy 8" and he's in sight. I move the rest of the group 8" as well, one at a time becasue they are mounted individually. Then the In Sight takes place.
I just don’t get how it possible that 2 Squads engage each other with multiple Members being able to fire if the first member moving into LOS triggers the Fire Fight…

I know that after triggering the Insight Test all members of the active group may move an additional 2". But is this really the only way to engage with multiple Members of a group? And how is this applied to the NP Enemies when they are the active Group.... This would force me to play both sides like a real player instead of letting the game AI handle the NP Enemies....

There are contradicting Answeres in the forum:

twohourwargames.proboards.com/thread/724/group-firing   (Group Movement Possible)

twohourwargames.proboards.com/thread/941/newbie-pef-resolution (each figure is moved individually)

PEF’s in Defensive Position
What is a defensive position in Game Terms ? If a PEF already is behind a Stonewall / Fence / Bocage etc or in a wood when it is resolved does this count as defensive position or do I have to place some kind of Trenches, Sandbags etc… It's in  Defensive Position so no need to change it. If it was in the open then Defensive Position applies.
If there is a PEF which moved and is on an open Road or behind a bocage / Fence etc. Can it still be in a defensive Position or a building? Do I just place a Building or defensive Postion in the middle of the Road or behind the Bocage? Can it appear out of nowhere even if my squad had LOS to the Position before… Doesn’t this lead to very strange and unrealistic Situations? (Buildings appearing out of nowhere or in very strange Locations, Buildings or fortified Positions moving into LOS of my squad)

No, they would go prone, Default to real life.

Group Size (and Grenades)

If multiple members of my Squad are positioned in a way that they COULD form a Group, can i still decide and activate them as multiple smaller Groups or alone? Yes  If the latter is possible does this mean every group can potentially throw a Grenade? Sure, it's your game. If you play someone else let them know your interpretation before you start.

Active Fire

If a group triggered an In Sight Test with an enemy Group that resulted in a Shootout -> does this count as Active Fire if

a) my (active) Group won the In Sight Test and fired

b) my (active) Group lost the In Sight Test but returned Fire

Or can my (active) Group still use an action to active Fire the enemy Group (if some members of both groups are still in LOS) ?

Page 17 Other Voluntary Actions says one Active Fire regardless of fired in Reaction.

Return Fire Example Page 27

Why do the Germans only use 2D6 each when firing with SMG's?

Should be three. Newer rules handle fire differently so my bad.

PEF Movement
Do PEF’s always use their full movement or can they move shorter to get or remain in cover ? Move full distance. Now if they are in cover when moving and hit the edge and trigger an In Sight, they halt as usual. This stops them from leaving cover and being exposed to the enemy.

NP PATROL REACTION
„… withdraws from the table back the way they entered.!” How is this possible? PEF’s are directly placed onto the Board in a Section or in a Building. They don’t enter the board via a table edge… Back through their baseline, sections 1, 2 and 3.  

WHERE REINFORCEMENTS ARRIVE

Where do Enemy Reinforcements (NP Enemies) arrive? The table seems to only cover Reinforcements for the Player. And again if the enemy did not move onto the Board but was spawned via PEF -> from which side to Reinforcements for NPE come onto the table... Not really spawning as they had to move there in real life. From their baseline, opposite to where the player's start or came from. Each Mission tells you where you set up and the opposite table edge is the enemy baseline

Rally / Recover

Is it possible during a single Activation of a Group that they are rallied by the Leader and then Recover? Possible.  Example - 1st Squad moves and goes into Duck Back. Platoon (3 squad group) Leader hasn't done anything yet so moves to them and tries to Rally them. If the Squad Leader has acted already he couldn't do it. 

Sorry for the wall of text, but I'm really confused...

No worries. THW rules aren't like the IGOUGO rules and can cause a lot of questions.
Take care,
Ed

Best Regards

Markus

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Updated the link, thanks again.

twohourwargames.proboards.com/thread/941/newbie-pef-resolution

[emkay1978]

Hello Ed,

big thanks for the ultra fast answere. It tremendously helped me to understand the system better.

I hope it is okay if ask another question regarding In Sight and Active Fire:

My Group activates. Enemy PEF / NP Group is out of Sight. I want to move across a road to another Cover.
I think the insight Test is taking when all my Men are in Sight (because the intention was to cross the road and get behind the next Building / Cover).
Now there are some possible outcomes:

A) I win the In Sight Test

Can I still decide to finish the move of my Squad or can I only use the 2” Inch additional Movement?

If i can resume my move, i assume a shootout starts at the end of the move as a result of the In Sight Test (if i'm still in LOS), correct?

Would this count as reactive or active Fire ?

B) I loose the In Sight Test

Can Squad Members that are still on “Carry on” finish their Move after all Reactions are played out.

Can i still start an Active Fire if some Minis still have LOS ?

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Sept 28, 2021 15:25:44 GMT emkay1978 said:

Hello Ed,

big thanks for the ultra fast answere. It tremendously helped me to understand the system better.

I hope it is okay if ask another question regarding In Sight and Active Fire:
Here goes.

My Group activates. Enemy PEF / NP Group is out of Sight. I want to move across a road to another Cover.
I think the insight Test is taking when all my Men are in Sight (because the intention was to cross the road and get behind the next Building / Cover). If they would all be in sight at the same time, like if they were in a line. If in a column then only the first guy out there is in sight.
Now there are some possible outcomes:

A) I win the In Sight Test

Can I still decide to finish the move of my Squad or can I only use the 2” Inch additional Movement? 2" comes before the In Sight is resolved.

If i can resume my move, i assume a shootout starts at the end of the move as a result of the In Sight Test (if i'm still in LOS), correct? Starts at the end of 2". You could be back in the woods out of sight. When finish the 2" roll to see who fires first. After you win the firefight, the rest of your move is taken.

Would this count as reactive or active Fire ? Reactive fire when triggered by an In Sight

B) I loose the In Sight Test

Can Squad Members that are still on “Carry on” finish their Move after all Reactions are played out. Yes.

Can i still start an Active Fire if some Minis still have LOS ? Yes.


Here's a detailed example.
A, B and C step out in sight of 1, 2 and 3.
They all fire. A and C take out 1 and 3.
B misses 2 and return fire takes B out. Reactive fire is done.


A and C now active fire and fire at 2. They miss.
2 Fires at A and C, takes A out, misses C.
C returns fire and takes out 2.
Just go step by step, guided by the Shooting Table. Once you get it, it's easy

[emkay1978]

Sept 28, 2021 21:07:20 GMT Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy said:

Sept 28, 2021 15:25:44 GMT emkay1978 said:

Hello Ed,

big thanks for the ultra fast answere. It tremendously helped me to understand the system better.

I hope it is okay if ask another question regarding In Sight and Active Fire:
Here goes.

My Group activates. Enemy PEF / NP Group is out of Sight. I want to move across a road to another Cover.
I think the insight Test is taking when all my Men are in Sight (because the intention was to cross the road and get behind the next Building / Cover). If they would all be in sight at the same time, like if they were in a line. If in a column then only the first guy out there is in sight.

If only the first Guy triggers the In Sight Test. What options do i have for the Rest of the Squad after the In Sight is resolved?

Case A) First Guy "survived" his In Sight Test:

Can the Rest of the Squad finish it's move across the Road into new Cover without triggering another In Sight ? Or does the second guy coming in Sight trigger another In Sight Test?

Case B) First Guy was shot down during his In Sight Test:

Can the Rest of the Squad finish it's move across the Road into new Cover without triggering another In Sight ? Or does the second guy coming in Sight trigger another In Sight Test?

Hope the questions don't sound too dumb, but i still struggle with the concept of the In Sight Tests. Because i wanted a whole Squad to cross a road from Cover to Cover. I had the impression (because of Group Movement) that i take one Test for the whole Squad. If i only test for the first Guy coming into Sight i still don't understand what's happening with the Rest of the Squad - can they finish their move without taking further In Sight Tests or do i have to take an Insight Test for each Member individually when he comes into Sight?

Both solution seem a bit off. If every member of the group triggers another In Sight test  (one after another) every member of my group gets shot by every Enemy still in Sight. But only taking a single In Sight Test for the first member of the Group and afterwards the whole group can move throught the enemies LOS doesn't see right either. Because of this i had the Impression after your helpful comments regarding "Group Movement" the best and most realistic resolution would be -> i have to decide how many Members of my Group want to run from Cover to Cover and all (of those) take one In Sight Test vs the Enemy Group. And after the Resolution of this In Sight Test the Members of my Group that are Carrying On can finish their move and may even start another Fire Fight (Active Fire).

[easyeight]

You should remember that the squad is moving as a body, so as that first figure triggers the In Sight test, you should have the other squad members accompanying it at whatever distance you set up, but no more than 4" from another figure in the squad. And don't forget, on page 19 it says, "Once the test is triggered the triggering group is allowed to move all of its figures (whether they triggered the In Sight or not) up to two additional inches. This movement could result in the figure going out of sight."

So once the In Sight is triggered, you can move figures into cover and so on up to 2" away. This can include going prone behind low cover.

[emkay1978]

Sept 29, 2021 17:45:17 GMT easyeight said:

You should remember that the squad is moving as a body, so as that first figure triggers the In Sight test, you should have the other squad members accompanying it at whatever distance you set up, but no more than 4" from another figure in the squad. And don't forget, on page 19 it says, "Once the test is triggered the triggering group is allowed to move all of its figures (whether they triggered the In Sight or not) up to two additional inches. This movement could result in the figure going out of sight."

So once the In Sight is triggered, you can move figures into cover and so on up to 2" away. This can include going prone behind low cover.

That's my main problem with the Rules right now.

There is Group Movement, i move my whole Squad at the same time. But on the other hand the very first Guy of my Group that comes into Sight (1" in LOS) triggers the In Sight Test while the Rest of my Squad is still out of Sight... This leads to the Point Man beeing alone except maybe 1 or 2 Squad Members that make it into Sight via the 2" additional Movement Rule.

If this is the intended way of playing i will give it another try and maybe have to play more tactically with the 2" additional Movement.

After Resolving the In Sight Test for the Leading Guy and the Firgures that moved into LOS via 2" Rule -> The Rest of the Squad may finish it's move if i understood it correctly -> Would this lead to further In Sight Tests of the same Group vs the same Enemies that already shot my Leading Guy?

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

They are moving at the same time in real life. If the first guy moves 6" before the In Sight, the whole squad moves 6" before it is resolved. Then when the In Sight is triggered they ALL have 2" of movement left. Hope this helps.

[emkay1978]

Yes this helps alot ! I think i now understand how Group movement and triggering In Sight is handled.

I just need one last bit of help and i think i can understand the Basics and Intention of the Reaction System:

I'm still unsure what happens after the resolution of the first In Sight Test when i move the rest of my Squad that was out of Sight during the first In Sight Test:

Rules state that "Whenever a group has an opposing group enter into its Line of Sight or LOS, and the opposing group was not seen previously during this activation phase, the in Sight Test has been triggered." Because my Group already triggered an Insight Test this activation i think this means no second In Sight Test.

But defaulting to real life -> I would assume that as soon as the first of my previously unseen Squad members moves into LOS of the Enemy another In Sight Test (including 2" Movement) is triggered.




Big Thanks for your help so far !

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Sept 30, 2021 21:08:32 GMT emkay1978 said:

Yes this helps alot ! I think i now understand how Group movement and triggering In Sight is handled.

I just need one last bit of help and i think i can understand the Basics and Intention of the Reaction System:

I'm still unsure what happens after the resolution of the first In Sight Test when i move the rest of my Squad that was out of Sight during the first In Sight Test:

Rules state that "Whenever a group has an opposing group enter into its Line of Sight or LOS, and the opposing group was not seen previously during this activation phase, the in Sight Test has been triggered." Because my Group already triggered an Insight Test this activation i think this means no second In Sight Test.

But defaulting to real life -> I would assume that as soon as the first of my previously unseen Squad members moves into LOS of the Enemy another In Sight Test (including 2" Movement) is triggered. Exactly. See below




Big Thanks for your help so far !

This occurs when a group moves, triggers and In Sight and then can move the rest of it's Active move. This could taken them into another In Sight.

[emkay1978]

Thank you sooo much for your help and Patience !!!

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Anytime.

[dylanjones]

You can of course deploy a "pointman" out front of your squad if you want. Put him up to four inches in front of the main body. They all still move as a group, but he will come into sight first and trigger the In Sight while the rest of the squad are hopefully safe behind or using their two inch In Sight movement to take up covered positions. Not a great or long life for the pointman, but them's the breaks.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Oct 5, 2021 22:00:04 GMT dylanjones said:

You can of course deploy a "pointman" out front of your squad if you want. Put him up to four inches in front of the main body. They all still move as a group, but he will come into sight first and trigger the In Sight while the rest of the squad are hopefully safe behind or using their two inch In Sight movement to take up covered positions. Not a great or long life for the pointman, but them's the breaks.

Or just have him step up the edge of the woods (1") and that triggers the In Sight but he's also in Cover. Then he could pull back out of sight once the PEF is resolved.