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Post by fabambina on May 29, 2020 5:39:51 GMT
I haven't taken a look at the new books for the other games like AZT, but all the old books I've looked at used Impact.
I understand it got changed in the 4th edition, and I believe it was to speed up the game.
Does anyone still use it?
What are the pros and cons?
As far as it looks to me, with half a dozen games of NUTS! under my belt, the new system seems to double penalize low rep units who already have the low rep penalty of failing rolls. Now they die easier too.
I know I'm still new and am missing things. That's why I'm asking.
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Post by fenris07 on May 29, 2020 13:54:15 GMT
I haven't taken a look at the new books for the other games like AZT, but all the old books I've looked at used Impact. I understand it got changed in the 4th edition, and I believe it was to speed up the game. Does anyone still use it? What are the pros and cons? As far as it looks to me, with half a dozen games of NUTS! under my belt, the new system seems to double penalize low rep units who already have the low rep penalty of failing rolls. Now they die easier too. I know I'm still new and am missing things. That's why I'm asking. I first played Nuts! with 2nd edition and that had Impact but then i jumped to 4th when i looked into it more and it's so much smoother. I stopped using Impact as it did slow down the game and i felt it wasn't necessary or add much. I mean you get hit by a bullet its not gonna feel good whether it was from a Kar 98 or a M1 Garand. I felt your reaction to getting hit by a bullet would matter more on your mental state, experience and where it hit you over the type of round you got hit with hence why i prefer the roll to be against your models Rep. A veteran may recognize a flesh wound and continue going where a rookie might freak out and think he's dying.
As for dying, everyone dies on a 6 regardless of Rep, taking a bullet to the face doesn't matter how hard core you are, you're dead. However out of the fight can mean lots of things. Maybe you've been shot and can't move as you slowly bleed out or its not that serious but you panic at the blood and refuse to fight anymore while insisting a medic looks at you. The main thing is you are out of the fight, not dead, just no longer fighting. Makes sense a rookie would stop fighting if they were injured and had never seen a bullet wound before a veteran who has and even possibly been wounded before and brought back to the front after recovery. In looking at quality of troops vs equipment of troops i feel the quality is more important.
Sorry for the rambling answer, hopefully it makes sense.
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Post by Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy on May 29, 2020 16:19:41 GMT
I haven't taken a look at the new books for the other games like AZT, but all the old books I've looked at used Impact. I understand it got changed in the 4th edition, and I believe it was to speed up the game. Does anyone still use it? What are the pros and cons? As far as it looks to me, with half a dozen games of NUTS! under my belt, the new system seems to double penalize low rep units who already have the low rep penalty of failing rolls. Now they die easier too. I know I'm still new and am missing things. That's why I'm asking. The problem I ran into with using Impact was it affected everyone the same way. So if a smaller, sickly target was hit by an Impact 3 round a highly trained, in great shape huge guy would suffer the same fate. Didn't make sense to me. As mentioned though "6" is the great equalizer - as in took a shot to the head. Now when it comes to Armor Penetration (Impact) on vehicles , that won't change.
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Post by fabambina on May 29, 2020 18:23:26 GMT
I haven't taken a look at the new books for the other games like AZT, but all the old books I've looked at used Impact. I understand it got changed in the 4th edition, and I believe it was to speed up the game. Does anyone still use it? What are the pros and cons? As far as it looks to me, with half a dozen games of NUTS! under my belt, the new system seems to double penalize low rep units who already have the low rep penalty of failing rolls. Now they die easier too. I know I'm still new and am missing things. That's why I'm asking. The problem I ran into with using Impact was it affected everyone the same way. So if a smaller, sickly target was hit by an Impact 3 round a highly trained, in great shape huge guy would suffer the same fate. Didn't make sense to me. As mentioned though "6" is the great equalizer - as in took a shot to the head. Now when it comes to Armor Penetration (Impact) on vehicles , that won't change. What about the older editions of some of the games? Would it be much of a difference if one was to play, say ATZ:FFO, and either use Impact or skip it? Many of the 2HWG systems are exactly the same. I find NUTS! Final Edition to be the smoothest set, albeit with limited experience in any of them. How much of a change would it be to play the other games, like M&M and ATZ:FFO, and use the NUTS!:FE rules just adding the small extra setting rules?
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Post by stryderg on May 29, 2020 19:45:06 GMT
Impact was cool back in original 5150 because you could easily differentiate between laser weapons (high impact vs kevlar, low impact vs mirrors) and slug throwers (high vs mirrors, low vs kevlar). Those are fundamentally different types of damage. It makes less sense when everyone has a slug thrower and no armor. And it's another roll that has to be taken for every hit.
You can always fudge in another column for your games. I think the idea is that the more minis you have on the table, the less detailed the game is going to be. So for ATZ:FF0 where you only have a few minis, it makes sense to add some detail to the weapons. Where for Nuts, with 8-12 minis, it just becomes a lot more to keep track of.
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Post by easyeight on May 29, 2020 20:35:57 GMT
I still use it, I like using impact in my NUTS games instead of REP because a higher caliber weapon will be more deadly, despite your figure's REP. When I don't use impact, I have a simple home rule for 4e: When a figure is hit by a heavy caliber weapon, it has a REP penalty when rolling on the Shooting Damage table: - LMG/MMG/BAR = -1REP
- HMG = -2REP
- Heavy automatic weapon (20mm, etc), Flamethrower = -3REP
So in the movie Saving Private Ryan, when the REP 4 paratroopers were close assaulting a Tiger tank and a 20mm FLAK gun fired on them, they would have a -3 REP on the Shooting Damage table. REP4, -3 for the heavy weapon, = modified REP1...so at best these figures will be OOF...
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Post by Kurt on May 30, 2020 9:35:00 GMT
I also use Impact for Nuts! I'm a Final Version type of guy. I also like using the separate reaction tables.
When a soldier is Knocked Down he gets a -1 to Rep.
I keep my squad size low, always 6-8 guys.
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Post by blacksmith on May 30, 2020 12:35:04 GMT
After playing Nuts! 4th edition I cannot play anything before that. However as Ed said, Impact is necessary for body and vehicle armour.
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Post by Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy on May 30, 2020 18:39:18 GMT
I still use it, I like using impact in my NUTS games instead of REP because a higher caliber weapon will be more deadly, despite your figure's REP. When I don't use impact, I have a simple home rule for 4e: When a figure is hit by a heavy caliber weapon, it has a REP penalty when rolling on the Shooting Damage table: - LMG/MMG/BAR = -1REP
- HMG = -2REP
- Heavy automatic weapon (20mm, etc), Flamethrower = -3REP
So in the movie Saving Private Ryan, when the REP 4 paratroopers were close assaulting a Tiger tank and a 20mm FLAK gun fired on them, they would have a -3 REP on the Shooting Damage table. REP4, -3 for the heavy weapon, = modified REP...so at best these figures will be OOF...
Well in the new Star Army - Citizen Soldier (?!) if you get hit by an Inferno Grenade, Laser, Plasma, or Rocket launcher you add to the d6 roll to give damage. Impact folded into the system so in your rule LMG/MMG/BAR = +1 to damage roll HMG = -+2 to damage roll Heavy automatic weapon (20mm, etc), Flamethrower = -+3 to Damage roll Doing it this way increases the chance of death as opposed to just reducing Rep which means you still need to roll a 6.
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Post by fabambina on May 30, 2020 18:48:28 GMT
Well in the new Star Army - Citizen Soldier (?!) if you get hit by an Inferno Grenade, Laser, Plasma, or Rocket launcher you add to the d6 roll to give damage. Interesting. Thanks for the sneak peek.
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Post by Srrom4 on May 30, 2020 20:23:07 GMT
I still use it, I like using impact in my NUTS games instead of REP because a higher caliber weapon will be more deadly, despite your figure's REP. When I don't use impact, I have a simple home rule for 4e: When a figure is hit by a heavy caliber weapon, it has a REP penalty when rolling on the Shooting Damage table: - LMG/MMG/BAR = -1REP
- HMG = -2REP
- Heavy automatic weapon (20mm, etc), Flamethrower = -3REP
So in the movie Saving Private Ryan, when the REP 4 paratroopers were close assaulting a Tiger tank and a 20mm FLAK gun fired on them, they would have a -3 REP on the Shooting Damage table. REP4, -3 for the heavy weapon, = modified REP1...so at best these figures will be OOF...
Very Good house rule, I'll apply it. And I add something more. As Ed says, you add to the d6 roll to give damage LMG/MMG/BAR / HE Blast Circle 80mm to 105mm = +1 DRM HMG / HE Blast Circle > 105mm to 120mm = +2 DRM Heavy automatic weapon (20mm, etc), Flamethrower / HE >120mm = +3 DRM A negative -1 DR modifier against HE can also be added to be in cover.
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Post by Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy on May 30, 2020 21:55:00 GMT
I like it.
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Post by easyeight on May 31, 2020 6:34:59 GMT
Let's write it up NUTS Style: In NUTS 4e, any figure that is hit by a heavy caliber weapon has a modifier when rolling on the Shooting Damage table. Roll the 1d6 vs REP normally, but add the relevant weapon modifier to that die roll: - LMG/MMG/BAR / HE Blast Circle 80mm to 105mm = +1 DRM
- HMG / HE Blast Circle > 105mm to 120mm = +2 DRM
- Heavy automatic weapon (20mm, etc), Flamethrower / HE >120mm = +3 DRM
Note: A negative -1 DR modifier against HE can also be added to if the figure is in cover from the blast. Example: A group of three REP 4 US paratrooper figures is fired on and hit by a 20mm automatic FLAK gun. Each figure hit adds a +3 modifier to the die roll on the Shooting Damage table. E.g., so rolling 1d6 REP +3 for each figure we score 1 +3 = 4, 2 +3 =5, and 6+3=9. Since each figure is REP 4, the result is one OOF figure, and two Obviously Dead figures.
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Post by Srrom4 on May 31, 2020 8:33:27 GMT
Let's write it up NUTS Style: In NUTS 4e, any figure that is hit by a heavy caliber weapon has a modifier when rolling on the Shooting Damage table. Roll the 1d6 vs REP normally, but add the relevant weapon modifier to that die roll: - LMG/MMG/BAR / HE Blast Circle 80mm to 105mm = +1 DRM
- HMG / HE Blast Circle > 105mm to 120mm = +2 DRM
- Heavy automatic weapon (20mm, etc), Flamethrower / HE >120mm = +3 DRM
Note: A negative -1 DR modifier against HE can also be added to if the figure is in cover from the blast. Example: A group of three REP 4 US paratrooper figures is fired on and hit by a 20mm automatic FLAK gun. Each figure hit adds a +3 modifier to the die roll on the Shooting Damage table. E.g., so rolling 1d6 REP +3 for each figure we score 1 +3 = 4, 2 +3 =5, and 6+3=9. Since each figure is REP 4, the result is one OOF figure, and two Obviously Dead figures.
Great! It's not, Two OOF figures and one Obviously Dead figure?
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Post by easyeight on May 31, 2020 15:07:59 GMT
Good point!
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