Economics of 5150 Known Space

[bigwalleye]

I have been enjoying all aspects of the 5150 New Beginnings package since it was released. But I am having trouble grafting Known Space onto NB. The system-building in KS is great, and the encounter charts by sector are even better than Fringe Space. But one seeming small thing causes a lot of problems.

"How Far Can I Travel" on page 21 of KS limits normal space travel to the Thrust rating of the ship, unless you risk the dreaded Long Jump (and only in the Voluntary Encounter, not the Invol). Now, I absolutely like the idea of limiting travel distance per month. But consider a Trader. The economics of hauling cargo look like this:

    - For a cargo of 3 Hull points, to be delivered 3 jumps away, expenses are 3 Decr D6 for ship maintenance (1 month) plus 3 Decr D6 for 3 jumps. Earnings are 3 Incr D6 for 3 Cargo plus 3 Incr D6 for 3 jumps. Break even.

    - For a cargo of 3 Hull points, to be delivered 4 jumps away, expenses are 6 Decr D6 for ship maintenance (1 months) plus 4 Decr D6 for 4 jumps. Earnings are 3 Incr D6 for 3 Cargo plus 4 Incr D5 for 4 jumps. Lose 3 Decr D6.

Now compare the economics of hauling 6 Cargo for 3 jumps. If you were a shipper, would you hire a Heavy Freighter, which would take 3 months, or 2 traders, which could get the Cargo delivered in 1 month at exactly the same cost? Seems counter-intuitive.

A related issue is that, since the rules now define Cargo capacity as equal to Hull points, a cutter with 4 Hull and 3 Thrust is a far more efficient freight-hauler than either of the dedicated freighters. That a small military vessel would be a better freight-hauler than a freighter again seems counter-intuitive.

I'd sure appreciate some advice on how others play NB with KS, and whether anyone has in-house solutions for the situations I described.

[squidlord]

There's really two issues here:

First, given the cost curve, in the 5150 setting it's just more reasonable to send more smaller ships than one singular large ship to move cargo. That's counterintuitive given our technology but just the way of the world in the setting as described. Chalk it up to the way that engine costs scale at volume. (Or introduce a house rule that allows you to add cargo modules to a ship in exchange for something other than a slower transit.)

In theory, the cutter shouldn't have significant cargo capacity. After all, all that space is full of guns, ammo, and Marines. Thus I don't think that the "cargo capacity equal to hull points" rule applies to military vehicles. (If I had to make an explicit house rule, I'd probably set it as 1/3 of hull for military vehicles. And even that's probably being too generous.)

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Economically as the owner of a Trader I wouldn't take those kinds of jobs where you jump so far away. Better to take the smaller ones to the next Ring. Also jumping three Rings gets you to at least Ring 5. Looking at pages 5 and 6 Ring 5 is mostly Monkey Boys, Hishen and other lowlifes. As a Trader owner, there's no reason for me to go out there. Unless of course I'm doing something illegal. Rings 1 to 4 are where the money is at. So, in short, it's all about the money.

[bigwalleye]

So, it's a feature, not a bug. OK, I get it.

Trouble is, my Star, Zack Levi, is involved with the IBs on Arrak-5 (5/2), who are resisting Hishen takeover. And Zack is heavily influenced by a certain lady doctor who supports Arrak independence.

Aww, hell! Let's do a long jump one more time!

[bigwalleye]

So, it's a feature, not a bug. OK, I get it.

Trouble is, my Star, Zack Levi, is involved with the IBs on Arrak-5 (5/2), who are resisting Hishen takeover. And Zack is heavily influenced by a certain lady doctor who supports Arrak independence.

Aww, hell! Let's do a long jump one more time!

[squidlord]

Sept 3, 2022 18:30:45 GMT bigwalleye said:

So, it's a feature, not a bug. OK, I get it.

Trouble is, my Star, Zack Levi, is involved with the IBs on Arrak-5 (5/2), who are resisting Hishen takeover. And Zack is heavily influenced by a certain lady doctor who supports Arrak independence.

Aww, hell! Let's do a long jump one more time!

Sometimes more important things than money are involved. Like sex. Sex has a value all its own.

Unless you're trading slaves, in which case – it's exactly the same value!

(I play a lot of scurrilous bastards. Why do you ask?)

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Ah, yes, it's all about the Story. Billy Pink's been around since July 2009. Here's his first appearance.

Motley Crew of Misfits

5150BillyPink.pdf (248.27 KB)

[stryderg]

You could always add a d6 or two for more hazardous cargoes, longer jumps, etc.
As a customer, I might be willing to pay extra to have my cargo shipped directly to the destination instead of having it transfer to multiple ships on it's way to the destination. More risk of damage/loss at the transfer points, dealing with customs in multiple systems, bureaucracy, etc. all have a cost of their own.

Of course, don't make it a given that the hauler will make a profit:
On each extra d6 that you decide to roll:
1 = gain 1 decreasing d6
2, 3, 4 = gain nothing
5, 6 = gain 1 increasing d6

[saint19]

Sept 3, 2022 19:29:35 GMT Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy said:

Ah, yes, it's all about the Story. Billy Pink's been around since July 2009. Here's his first appearance.

Motley Crew of Misfits

View Attachment

Man thanx for the Battle Report. That was really cool.

[easyeight]

Earnings are 3 Incr D6 for 3 Cargo plus 3 Incr D6 for 3 jumps. Break even.

That's just for Hauling. Hauling may keep you flying, it's not gonna make you rich. That's where Trading comes in. If you Trade you have a chance to Buy Low and Sell High. That is, you can speculate on Trade from a planet in anticipation of a higher value at another one.

1. Buying & Selling test means you could buy Cargo on the cheap
2. What kind of planet you buy from and where you sell can affect your final trade.
3. Distance of trade can affect final trade value (3+ sectors = +1d6, etc.)
4. In faction vs non faction trades
5. Smuggling can bump your value up as well

As the example in the book says:
Example – The Billy’s Chance arrives at a Zhuh-
Zhuh Farming Planet (POP 3) and has 3 Units of
Cargo to sell from a Factory planet. Captain Billy
resolves a Chillin’ Encounter to get the Job
Encounter that puts him in contact with a Trade
Broker. He can now trade Cargo. Next he rolls 2d6
vs People Skill (5) on the Buying & Selling Table
and rolls a 3, 6, which is a Pass 1, which results in a
value of 2 per Cargo.
Then he checks the Price Adjustment Table.
He gets +1 for trading Factory cargo at a Farming
world, and a variable for trading at a non-faction
planet. He rolls 1d6 and scores a 5, giving an extra
+1 modifier. This means he’ll earn x4 d6 Increasing
Rep per Cargo. What a trade!!

[squidlord]

The Trade is great if you are making a speculative run. If you're trying to figure out how bulk haulage works – probably not as exciting.

Mind you, massive fortunes were made and lost in the 18th century from an investor backing a relatively large shipment, hiring a ship to move it, and speculating on the value on arrival. The best stories are all about losing money on that trade, of course.

Sometimes pretty hard on the captains, however.

Now, the fun of trading high-volume large cargoes which are also legally restricted in the area of sale – that's good money and high risk. And you would have to be insane to want to do that kind of business.

Which is why I own a heavy freighter.

[easyeight]

In the draft phase I had written more detailed travel rules, a ship design system, more detailed cost and profit structure, etc. For example, you could create a Heavy Cargo ship with 1 Thrust, 0 Firepower and high Hull that only uses an ATP (or Jump Point) to travel to a system one Jump away, at a reduced maintenance cost based on a Hull range. The problem was this was basically a mini-trading game within Known Space that would add to the print size and many people wouldn't play that level of detail. It might be a decent card game, or an add on to Fighter Pilot. Have to think about it.

[bigwalleye]

Sept 6, 2022 20:53:57 GMT easyeight said:

Earnings are 3 Incr D6 for 3 Cargo plus 3 Incr D6 for 3 jumps. Break even.

That's just for Hauling. Hauling may keep you flying, it's not gonna make you rich. That's where Trading comes in. If you Trade you have a chance to Buy Low and Sell High. That is, you can speculate on Trade from a planet in anticipation of a higher value at another one.

1. Buying & Selling test means you could buy Cargo on the cheap
2. What kind of planet you buy from and where you sell can affect your final trade.
3. Distance of trade can affect final trade value (3+ sectors = +1d6, etc.)
4. In faction vs non faction trades
5. Smuggling can bump your value up as well

As the example in the book says:
Example – The Billy’s Chance arrives at a Zhuh-
Zhuh Farming Planet (POP 3) and has 3 Units of
Cargo to sell from a Factory planet. Captain Billy
resolves a Chillin’ Encounter to get the Job
Encounter that puts him in contact with a Trade
Broker. He can now trade Cargo. Next he rolls 2d6
vs People Skill (5) on the Buying & Selling Table
and rolls a 3, 6, which is a Pass 1, which results in a
value of 2 per Cargo.
Then he checks the Price Adjustment Table.
He gets +1 for trading Factory cargo at a Farming
world, and a variable for trading at a non-faction
planet. He rolls 1d6 and scores a 5, giving an extra
+1 modifier. This means he’ll earn x4 d6 Increasing
Rep per Cargo. What a trade!!

Actually, not all that good a trade. Because he also had to roll on the Buying and Selling Table when he bought the cargo. And, since his People Skill is a 5, he probably had to pay 2x per Cargo. So he did double his money but almost certainly (98% chance) didn't quadruple it. So, with a cargo capacity of 3, he makes 6. Not shabby, but not a way to get rich quick, either. Might as well bet the CVL games.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Ah yes, betting on the CVL. Poor Syd.
Sudden Death

[squidlord]

Sept 6, 2022 22:08:11 GMT easyeight said:

The problem was this was basically a mini-trading game within Known Space that would add to the print size and many people wouldn't play that level of detail. It might be a decent card game, or an add on to Fighter Pilot. Have to think about it.

Sold. See to it, fancy lad.