Confused about what to get

[brunop]

Hello! I Recently got the urge to play a skirmish wargame. Thinking about it, I came up with some criterias:

Since I don't have any partner interested in playing a wargame, I need something playable solo.
I don't have much space to store things, and I am not interested in creating scenery and painting minis, so I prefer paper standees and maps, or hex and counters
Relatively simple rules
Low model count (I have difficulty managing too much information at the same time)
I once tried Malifaux, and got overwhelmed but the special abilities and synergy, so no combos. I prefer clever tactics to combos
Sci-fi setting

This more of less led me to Battletech Alpha Strike, but it's not solo, so...

Then I saw somebody recommend 5150.

Began to look at the system, and now I am really confused. There's multiple standalone products, some are expansions to others, and there's multiple versions of some of them. Also, it appears that the game changed from a tabletop miniatures game to something more abstract a while back. And now I just don't know where to start.

Any help would be appreciated.

[infierno]

Two Hour Wargames definitely fit the criteria you're looking for. Made for solo play, no need for elaborate scenery and minis (but compatible if you want to use them), and easily played with paper cutouts. The newest versions of the games include rules for both full tabletop miniatures and the more abstract "Battle Board" rules so you can play what you prefer.

5150: Star Army Citizen Soldier is the basic tabletop skirmish rule set, which uses measurements and distances - this is the one I think you're looking for. This includes rules for vehicles and walkers and whatnot.

5150: Star Marine is a standalone ruleset that specifically focuses on Space Marines and their ops. This is my personal favorite of the bunch, but I don't think it includes rules for vehicles and walkers, if that matters to you.

5150: Gaea Prime First Defense is basically X-Com: The Miniatures Game. More of a campaign-focused affair that deals with fighting off unfriendly invaders.

Bugs: Into the Tunnels and Star Army Cestus V are both campaign books.

On the other hand, 5150: New Beginnings is the RPG rule set.

Hope this all helps and I'm sure someone will have more specific recs

[squidlord]

Jan 10, 2022 21:05:07 GMT brunop said:

Began to look at the system, and now I am really confused. There's multiple standalone products, some are expansions to others, and there's multiple versions of some of them. Also, it appears that the game changed from a tabletop miniatures game to something more abstract a while back. And now I just don't know where to start.

Any help would be appreciated.

So – here's the thing. 5150 is not "a game." It is a game line which contains multiple games with multiple rule sets within the same setting. For the largest part, all of those systems use the same mechanical components, they resolve things in very similar if not identical ways, and with little effort you can put together whatever parts you want to cover whatever scale you want to have whatever kind of play you want.

The most recent Kickstarter release was a rewrite and clean up and new addition, effectively, of the RPG-scale mechanics and support materials. For you, that may not necessarily be what you're looking to play with. I will say that it (New Beginnings) is really good at what it does and it's nice to have that particular sub- line retooled and republished. Check out what other people have done with it and it might appeal to you from the perspective of small table space, limited numbers of characters, straightforward rules, low model count experiences. But it's definitely more of a narrativist experience driven by many of the same mechanics used throughout the line as a whole.

Sometime in the next month or so we expect to receive an update to the harder, more wargame-focused mechanics found in the 5150: Star Army sub-line. Battlefield experiences there tend to be more focused on things which are up to company sized, but there are books which focus on smaller, squad to platoon level operations like Star Marine or the Bugs series. Honestly, running three squads/a platoon with those mechanics is very straightforward and I suspect you wouldn't be deeply overwhelmed because of the way that operations proceed by group.

If you're just looking for one book to pick up between now and the new edition, I'd say pickup Star Marine because it's $10 US and while it's not completely focused on tactical movement, it can definitely give you that kind of juice. If things work out and you like it, think about jumping into the Kickstarter once it's live and I think you would not be unhappy.

[brunop]

So, there is also an Rpg. Always wanted to try one of those. It says solo too. Wow.

However, how does it work? How much work does it take to create a scenario?

[infierno]

I found the rules to be very streamlined and easy to pick up and learn when I first discovered THW. Once you have a feel for the rules, you can set up a one-off scenario in just a few minutes. It really depends on the kind of scenario you want to play.

There's two ways I do it: Either a basic abstract shoot-em-up scenario, or a full tabletop scenario with movement and terrain.

For abstract shoot-em-up, you can just pick the number of guys on each side, pick or roll randomly their Reps and Weapons, maybe give each an Attribute to give more flavor, then roll for Activation and start shooting. If you want to play solo, you can set up your own side and then resolve "PEFs" (Potential Enemy Forces, aka Blips) and those will randomly generate enemies for you.

If you want a detailed scenario with full platoons and terrain, you take a 3'x3' table and divide it into 9 sections. Then you roll 1d6 for each section to see what kind of terrain it has, and after that it's more or less the same. Pick number of guys for each side (or your own side and place PEFs on the map), decide or roll for their Rep and Weapon and Attribute, then deploy and start moving. When you come into LOS of an enemy force or PEF, you take the "In Sight" test, which means there's a chance that the Inactive side will get to take the first shot - so activating first is no guarantee of success.

Hopefully that's a decent overview and answers your questions. There's really no other system like THW and I love how simple and easy it is to play, yet realistic and deadly.

[squidlord]

Jan 10, 2022 21:48:17 GMT brunop said:

So, there is also an Rpg. Always wanted to try one of those. It says solo too. Wow.

However, how does it work? How much work does it take to create a scenario?

You don't, really. Or rather – due to the way that the game design works, what you have is a very "Oracle-based" system has the RPG-geeks would have it. Essentially, the game has a number of tables and a number of types of "thing" that you can do (carousing, recruiting, looking for trouble, pursuing a personal interest, etc.), then you use the tables to generate what happens dynamically as you proceed. The narrative itself is constructed from just the things that happen to you.

There are several examples of people playing New Beginnings on the forum and I definitely suggest that you look into some of those threads. Many of them use minis and terrain because you can and it does make for fantastic pictures, but it's not necessary to play the game.

If you haven't looked at the basic Chain Reaction mechanics yet, this would probably be a good time to do so. They are free and easy to use.

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Jan 10, 2022 21:48:17 GMT brunop said:

So, there is also an Rpg. Always wanted to try one of those. It says solo too. Wow.

However, how does it work? How much work does it take to create a scenario?

It sounds like using the Battle Board might be what you're looking to do. Give this a look to see how it can be played.

[davidlhsl]

Jan 10, 2022 21:48:17 GMT brunop said:

So, there is also an Rpg. Always wanted to try one of those. It says solo too. Wow.

However, how does it work? How much work does it take to create a scenario?

Yes, THW has produced a ton of RPG-lite titles covering a wide range of genres: western, post-apocalypse, zombie apocalypse "Walking Dead" style where you're dealing with other people as well as the zombie horde, sci-fi. THW games are streamlined where you don't need 30 minutes to an hour to build a character sheet. RPG fans might feel limited by this, but this keeps things focused on your story rather than the usual grinding that can happen. Also, you're encouraged to begin at a high ranking (known as Rep 5 in the THW world), which means you don't start your adventure sorting mail or whacking fleas with a spoon. You get to start as your own Indiana Jones/Luke Skywalker/Rick Grimes. Don't get too cocky, though, because the system is deadly.

Ed (the creator and awesome guy) has a YouTube video demonstrating an RPG-lite system using the new 5150: New Beginnings:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxdhgDUh6bs&t=1s

Each month you begin with an involuntary encounter where you might get robbed or defend against an attack. That can get the imagination flowing on how you might choose to follow up on it (perhaps see if you can find out the reason for the attack and if anyone behind the scenes might've contracted a hit on you). Or you might just consider it just another fun time in New Hope City.

The second part of your month is where you will select a voluntary encounter from a provided list. You might go Chillin' where you're hanging out at a club. You might seek a job, recruit members to join you, gamble, or even seek companionship that might leave your wallet empty the next morning.

The rules do guide you though this basic structure of involuntary/voluntary encounters, and you can have a lot of fun doing this. The system really opens wide open when you're ready to take the initiative and start to insert your own motives and adventures into the mix above and beyond playing through the game mechanics. You can imagine the dialog taking place. You can design your own mission, such as break into a corporation's warehouse to seek documents that you can sell to a competitor. Then you can use the THW mechanics to play them out, as the rules provide fog-of-war in the way you never know who or how many people you'll meet, whether they will be friendly or try to stuff you into a locker, etc.

That's just a basic summary of the RPG side of the THW catalog.

[brunop]

Ooh, that sound sooo interesting.

Now, for 5150 is there a new kickstarter coming soon? Am I better to wait until the new update?

[davidlhsl]

Jan 11, 2022 1:05:16 GMT brunop said:

Ooh, that sound sooo interesting.

Now, for 5150 is there a new kickstarter coming soon? Am I better to wait until the new update?

The new 5150: New Beginnings (the RPG) that was offered at the recent Kickstarter is now listed for sale at the THW site.

www.twohourwargames.com/taofcofor51n.html

And here's the link where it shows all the supplements offered:

www.twohourwargames.com/scifi51urrer.html

You'll notice there are several supplements. Since you're starting out, I recommend holding off on everything except possibly the New Hope City Deck. The deck makes it very convenient to generate NPCs (non-player characters) without rolling on tables in the rulebook. If you're like me and you must have everything (or you want to order at once to save postage), then go ahead. Just hold the other books in reserve for the time being until you get up to speed on the main book.

Also note that it's not necessary to play with all the rules in place, especially when starting. For example, for a long time I didn't use the rules for determining whether combat triggers the potential arrival of the police. I have recently begun using those rules. But I'll also skip those rules when I don't want that interruption interfering with a nice story line I have going. That's the neat thing about the system, and it's identical to the way fuller RPGs work: the systems are like tools in a toolbox that you can selectively use based on the type of adventure you're wanting and the context within the story.

It's also possible to tweak the rules. RPG game masters refer to this as "home brewing" the rules. For example, you might create more options that can occur during character interaction. However, I encourage beginning learning the system "rules as written" to become familiar with the mechanics before spreading your wings and flying. Don't worry; this will happen naturally.

Ok, that covers the RPG. If you're asking about the wargaming side of 5150 (Star Army and Star Navy), then that Kickstarter with the updated rules hasn't yet launched. 

------
Postscript
It might be a good idea for me to explain what we mean by "battle board" gaming. This is demonstrated in the YouTube video I linked earlier.

During THW's early period, the focus was on actual table top gaming where you move figures on the table. THW used a really neat system to feature Fog of War. Instead of placing your A.I. opponent's figures on the table, you instead placed three markers on the tables representing PEFs (Possible Enemy Forces). Then you moved your figures on the table, and the PEF markers would also stay in place or move towards/away from your forces. Once you get into line of sight with the PEF markers, you rolled on a chart to determine what the PEF forces contain. They could be enemy units, and the number of soldiers would vary based on what you rolled. Even more neat is that the PEF markers might be nothing. *Poof!* Just like that, it was just the wind. That's the wargaming titles. RPG titles worked the same way, but you also determined if figures you encountered were friendly or hostile. In many cases, they may be just going about their own business and ignore you.

The battle board system was developed to prevent you from requiring a full-sized gaming table. Instead of moving figures around the table and encountering PEFs as they appear in line of sight, you instead of put your figures on an 8-1/2" piece of paper called your battle board. Then you resolve PEFs one at a time without moving on a full-sized table. When you encounter opposing figures, you place those figures/counters/etc. on your battle board. This allows you to visually who is shooting at whom, and whether they are active, out of the fight, obviously dead, or ducked back. The maneuvering is left to your imagination, and RPGers refer to this as "theater of the mind" style of playing.

Hopefully that helps give you a clearer picture of how the system works.

[brunop]

Thanks for all the information. It seems really interesting.

My first reaction to the battle board was negative. How could that be better than a wargame encounter. However, I did try some wargames sole a while back, and I felt that most of the time, there was a few rounds of moving around then all minis settled in their position and from there it was just rolling dice for the rest of the game. So a battle board isn’t to far from what I experienced.

But, as I was playing against myself, it might not be really representative of an actual wargaming session.

[infierno]

Jan 11, 2022 1:05:16 GMT brunop said:

Ooh, that sound sooo interesting.

Now, for 5150 is there a new kickstarter coming soon? Am I better to wait until the new update?

There's a new Kickstarter coming up for Star Army and the related books, so for those games you might be best off waiting if you want the fully updated versions.

And yeah, to me the beauty of THW is how it streamlines RPG and wargame mechanics while still producing the same effective results, though you still have the option for extra fiddly bits if you want.  The full tabletop movement rules are definitely at their best when you have two players going head-to-head, and the Battle Board is at its best when soloing IMO.

[brunop]

Another question about the RPG. Can it handle some spy story, with infiltration and the like?

[Ed the Two Hour Wargames Guy]

Jan 11, 2022 2:20:38 GMT brunop said:

Another question about the RPG. Can it handle some spy story, with infiltration and the like?

Yep, easily. We have a Challenge Test.
1 - Decide what the Challenge is. Let's say, sneak over a fence without setting off an alarm.
2 - Decide what a success is. Makes it and no alarm set.
3 - Decide what a failure is. Can't make it over and set off the alarm. 1/26 guards show up.
4 - Roll 2d6 versus Rep - how good you are.
Pass 2d6 = Rep or lower on each d6.
Pass 1d6 = Try again but if pass 1d6, you count nis as passing 0d6. Or not try it again.
Pass 0d6 = Failed.

If it's a Physical thing count Rep.
People relating - then count People Skill.
Intelligence bade - count Savvy Skill.
 Hope this helps.

[davidlhsl]

Jan 11, 2022 2:20:38 GMT brunop said:

Another question about the RPG. Can it handle some spy story, with infiltration and the like?

It can, even though I don't think the rules explicitly describe this situation.

To explain how you can do this, a quick and basic primer:

Figures are assigned a primary skill rating called Rep (short for Reputation). THW used d6, so the ratings are based on rolling less than or equal to that number to pass.

Rep 3 = novice or recruit = roll 1-3 is pass
Rep 4 = skilled or experienced = roll 1-4 is pass
Rep 5 = expert or veteran = roll 1-5 is pass

Rep can be 6 or higher, though I personally cap my Rep at 7 (part of my home brewing). A roll of 6 is almost always considered a fail, even when Rep is 6+.

When rolling on a table, you usually roll 2d6 and determine how many of the dice you roll pass (fall within the indicated range). There can be modifiers that can adjust your Rep or number of dice rolled. For example, if I'm Rep 5 and I perform a difficult challenge, that would be a -1 modifier to my Rep = 1-4 passes instead of 1-5.

Pass 2d6 = success!
Pass 1d6 = in some cases it's a neutral result, in others it might require rolling again
Pass 0d6 = fail!

This is used in almost every THW table. If you shoot, it's a 2d6 roll. Treat each die individually; you don't add the numbers. If you're interacting, it's a 2d6 roll. You get the idea.

But the rules include a special table called Challenge, and it can be anything you want it to be! Want to climb over a barbed wire fence? Challenge! Want to sneak past a guard? Challenge!

So here's how I might create a challenge to have a Rep 5 spy sneak into a secret enemy base undetected.

Step 1: Name the challenge: Sneak past a guard.
Step 2: Assign the difficulty to the challenge. Difficult = -1 Rep, Normal = Rep, Easy = +1 Rep (remember that a roll of 6 doesn't pass). You don't have to overcomplicate this. Consider all of the variables and base your difficulty on the net influence of the situation. Ok, I'm a spy sneaking in during the night, I have training in this situation, I'm wearing dark clothing and sneakers, the guard is patrolling but has a dog with him. Now this is a judgement call, but I would say that it nets into a difficult challenge. I base this on the fact that the dog's senses isn't affected by the night or my clothing. If it was just the guard, I'd say it was easy.
Step 3: Determine what a success and fail would do. Success = sneak past. Fail = dog barks!
Step 4: Roll 2d6 vs. modified rep, with 6 = not passed. Pass 2d6 = success, Pass 0d6 = Fail, Pass 1d6 = decide if you want to call off the challenge or roll again. If you roll again, treat Pass 1d6 as Pass 0d6 (fail!).

Ok, so now I'm actually going to roll 2d6 (I have them on a nearby table) and see what happens! My roll = 1 (pass) and 3 (pass). I passed 2d6, so I sneak past the guard. In an infiltration situation, I might say that I need to resolve 3 PEFs, using my Challenge to sneak past if I encounter anyone. Then I might set up another challenge to pick a lock or hack into the security panel.

What if I had failed and the dog barked? Then I would need to improvise the result further. I might try to attack the guard and dog in melee with a taser (there are rules for melee, but you can easily determine how to handle the taser, including possibly treating the taser as a ranged weapon). If I can neutralize that threat, then I would treat all further sneaking past challenges as difficult (the other guards know something is up, but they won't know where I'm at). Instead of sneaking, I might just attack each guard as I encounter them.

I actually played a similar situation a few months ago, and it was fun (I didn't think about having any dogs, though). If you read this and think, "Interesting, but I think I'd do it this way instead", then that's perfect! Do it the way that makes sense to your story!